Raheem Morris discussion thread

[Mackeyser]

The offense produced 13 points for the opposition.
Special Teams produced 6 for the opposition.
19 points.
The defense gave up 17.

Against Tennessee, the defense was VERY good.
Offense spotted them 14.

There’s no argument on where the majority of the blame lies in those games.

Sorry.. silly argument.

Stats without context are meaningless.

We cannot know how the game plays out without the turnovers. We just can't know. So asserting that we win without the turnovers simply ignores the game that would have played out.

Maybe a team has an injury they wouldn't have or doesn't have an injury they did.

Maybe a player makes a play. Who knows?

The point is that those points happened in the context of a game that happened and that's all we can deal with.

We might as well say, "well, if everyone on our team was healthy and all their players were sick, we'd win the game"

Well, yeah, probably, but that's a worthless hypothetical.

NO doubt that the turnovers are killing us right now, but to ignore the impact of those extended drives by opponents on the offense, how it limits opportunities, limits the ability to get in sync, limits the ability to recover from mistakes and changes the gameplay based on different game scenarios is to ignore the game, itself.

You're asserting a hypothetical as fact and that's where the error lies.

 

[payote75]

I think people want to fire Morris because he's never been successful. The debate in the thread is: should we fire Morris? You're having your own little sub-debate about what the bigger problem is. That's cool. I don't think anyone has an issue with having that debate. However, the question is should we fire Morris. The defense is deeply flawed. It's not as big of a problem right now as the offense and special teams are. But earlier in the season it was and if the offense ever figures itself out it will be. So the question stands. Do we need to fire Morris to fix the defense? I would say that given that he's never been successful before as a DC, he probably won't suddenly start being successful here mid-season or next year. He didn't have a background in the defense the team publicly stated it wants to run and it shows. He wasn't good with the defense he knows. He isn't good with the defense he doesn't know. There's absolutely no reason to suspect he will get better. Should we keep someone around that isn't good now and won't get better? I don't think we should.

The offense on the other hand... We've seen McVay be successful. We've seen him scheme well. He's been, arguably, the best at what he does before. He had effectively used the talent at his disposal to put this team in a great position. If we stick with him, he might get back to what he's done before. I would even say it's likely. We just have to be patient.

Special teams is having problems because of the way we built the roster. McVay doesn't seem to prioritize special teams guys at the bottom of the roster. Our special teams were good under Fisher because they were more important to him than a competent offense (only a mild exaggeration). They were good when McVay started because he had leftovers from Fisher. I fully believe Snead and McVay can figure that out and fix it, given enough time.

So let's recap.
Offense: scheme is jacked up and causing problems, but we can reasonably have faith that the coach will fix it

Special teams: talent is jacked up and causing major problems. We can reasonably have faith that the GM and coach will fix it.

Defense: scheme is jacked up causing moderate problems. There is absolutely no reasonable hope for the current coach to fix it.

So what's a fan to do in this circumstance? I'm my opinion, and it sounds like a lot of other fans agree, you be patient with offense and special teams and lament about how the DC needs to be fired.

The defense isn't the biggest problem. It is being run in a way that is the opposite of synergistic with the offense. I don't know what the word is for that. The offense is super messed up right now and that's exacerbated by the way the defense is being run. Is it the defense's fault the offense is sucking so hard? No, but it is actively creating conditions that make the recovery of the offense harder. We know the offensive coaching is capable of high level performance. We also know the defensive coaching hasn't yet ever shown that it is capable of high level performance. The call to replace the defensive coaching with someone who can at least not be an obstacle to the offense's recovery makes sense. It sure as shit won't fix the offense and the offensive coaches will have to deliver, but it makes sense to believe they can.

Well said I been saying that last part for quite a bit while the scheme blows what makes it worse is it's counterintuitive with mcvays offense. In essence it's like the offense has two opponents each week. It's own defense and the opponent's that they are facing. Mcvay wants go go go chunks bombs sustained drives but the defense is bend but don't break so keep everything in front in turn teams do exactly that basically keep the ball out of the wonder kids offense and gas our defense. Then when the offense does see the ball they are trying for quick points or forcing plays abandoning the run more than usual because who knows when they will see it again and God forbid a turnover that is now magnified and catastrophic because of another lost possession. Teams know this and we are playing into everyone's game plan ourselves.

This is why I do have some hope because teams aren't necessarily imposing thier will on us we just enabling them allowing them too.

So yes mcvay needs to grow a set get it on his coordinator or fire his buddy. Mcvay then also needs to look in the mirror because there are no more scapegoats his play calling could be better at times yes but I'm sure it's effected by what's transpiring.

So yes either rip him a new one or fire him.

 

[payote75]

Stats without context are meaningless.

We cannot know how the game plays out without the turnovers. We just can't know. So asserting that we win without the turnovers simply ignores the game that would have played out.

Maybe a team has an injury they wouldn't have or doesn't have an injury they did.

Maybe a player makes a play. Who knows?

The point is that those points happened in the context of a game that happened and that's all we can deal with.

We might as well say, "well, if everyone on our team was healthy and all their players were sick, we'd win the game"

Well, yeah, probably, but that's a worthless hypothetical.

NO doubt that the turnovers are killing us right now, but to ignore the impact of those extended drives by opponents on the offense, how it limits opportunities, limits the ability to get in sync, limits the ability to recover from mistakes and changes the gameplay based on different game scenarios is to ignore the game, itself.

You're asserting a hypothetical as fact and that's where the error lies.

This is perfection!!! Well said dude!!!

 

[Kupped]

Stats without context are meaningless.

We cannot know how the game plays out without the turnovers. We just can't know. So asserting that we win without the turnovers simply ignores the game that would have played out.

Maybe a team has an injury they wouldn't have or doesn't have an injury they did.

Maybe a player makes a play. Who knows?

The point is that those points happened in the context of a game that happened and that's all we can deal with.

We might as well say, "well, if everyone on our team was healthy and all their players were sick, we'd win the game"

Well, yeah, probably, but that's a worthless hypothetical.

NO doubt that the turnovers are killing us right now, but to ignore the impact of those extended drives by opponents on the offense, how it limits opportunities, limits the ability to get in sync, limits the ability to recover from mistakes and changes the gameplay based on different game scenarios is to ignore the game, itself.

You're asserting a hypothetical as fact and that's where the error lies.

Oh, boy.

Of course a team COULD win… but you’re still overcoming a big deficit created by the offense.

Hence.. the biggest problem in the losses was spotting other teams’ points.

If you spot the opposition points, it’s a lot harder to win.

Honestly.. I don’t understand how this is a debatable point.

 

[XXXIVwin]

That's in large part because of the field position. You can't play 10 yards off a receiver when snapping from the 8 yard line. Morris ends up a beneficiary of the collapsed field.

If the scheme were as effective as they can be in the red zone, we wouldn't see these 18 play drives.

That's the point... the scheme just doesn't work. The fact that players can make plays when the scheme can't take them out of the play as easily just means we have much better players and the scheme is holding them back.

Interesting point, hadn't considered this specifically. Do u think that generally speaking, "bend but don't break" style defenses tend to play better in the red zone?

Would make sense to me if that was a general trend, and not just specific to Morris.

Not sure what the stat rankings are, but to my eye the Morris D performs better in the red zone as compared to between the 20s.

I remember a snarky post I made after game 2. I said, "Maybe the key to victory is to let our opponent take the opening kickoff and drive all the way down to our goal line, and then hold them to zero points." (That's what happened with both IND and CHI).

 

[Kupped]

That's in large part because of the field position. You can't play 10 yards off a receiver when snapping from the 8 yard line. Morris ends up a beneficiary of the collapsed field.

If the scheme were as effective as they can be in the red zone, we wouldn't see these 18 play drives.

That's the point... the scheme just doesn't work. The fact that players can make plays when the scheme can't take them out of the play as easily just means we have much better players and the scheme is holding them back.

So… the design of the scheme helped.

Lol.

I’m out.

 

[Tano]

Lol..
the defense did!!!
The two FGs after turnovers!!!
They forced 5 punts!!!
Stafford has shown he could turn the ball over again!

At some point.. the “what might happen” needs to step aside for the “what actually happened.”

And what happened is the offense lost those games.

1 punt came right before halftime with 18 secs left and Packers having to throw on every down

2 punts came in the 4th quarter when the Packers had a huge lead (almost always happens when teams have big leads in the 4th quarter that they punt the ball frequently)

So for the rest of the game they got 2 punts with 4 long ass drives

Not winning defense imho

 

[dieterbrock]

Still venting I see... Man sunday cant get here fast enough

 

[Tano]

Still venting I see... Man sunday cant get here fast enough

3 weeks man - I need to vent

 

[Merlin]

I think people want to fire Morris because he's never been successful. The debate in the thread is: should we fire Morris? You're having your own little sub-debate about what the bigger problem is. That's cool. I don't think anyone has an issue with having that debate. However, the question is should we fire Morris.

Nice post. This sums things up for this thread for me. The question is whether he's the right guy to run this defense going forward. The Rams see themselves as a top team, a top contender. Is he the guy they want running such a big part of the engine?

It's a complicated question. He's definitely learning on the job I think first off and that is not his fault. He is not to blame for not knowing quarters and having a deep grasp of the Fangio defense. That's on McVay for bringing him in to what is a pressure cooker for a guy who will be learning on the job.

Also the players are not ideal. That is in large part on the DC, who needs to communicate the keys he requires to the leadership where the Rams have shown they will go get what you want. To a greater or lesser degree he should have seen the problems with Rapp and Reeder and the edge and pounded the table. Now maybe he did and this factors in to the decision greatly on whether to fire him, since the Rams do know what he was saying prior to the season, we just won't know all that.

But it's also kind of like the move they made at QB. Is the guy good enough to set him aside as a concern and keep building around him? This is why it's wise I think to let him finish out the season. By season's end if this defense isn't playing good ball then the decision will be clear IMO.

 

[Kupped]

An excerpt from an article just posted in the McVay thread.
Just to hammer home that the offense is the bigger problem right now.. in this losing stretch, not only are they producing catastrophic turnovers... they're just not very good. People focusing on the "where do they rank this season" need to take a reassessment of the offense and what it is right now.
All this "but possessions".. "but time of possession" stuff has some merit, yet is a distraction from the bigger issue the Rams have right now.

"There’s been a drastic downturn since the calendar turned over to November. The Rams have lost three consecutive games, and, over that span, they rank 30th in EPA per play, per RBSDM.com. Stafford’s blunders have been the driving factor behind this slump; since Week 9, he’s lost 47.7 expected points on sacks and interceptions, which leads the league by a healthy margin, per TruMedia. But the struggles of the Rams offense are about more than just a few mistakes. There’s rot beneath the surface here that should alarm McVay, Stafford, and every fan in Los Angeles. The team’s success rate, which wouldn’t be impacted by a high number of turnovers, is down by nearly 10 percentage points since Week 9. And, per TruMedia, Stafford’s EPA on completed passes has dropped from 1.17 per play, which led the league over the first eight weeks, down to 0.70 per play since Week 9, which ranks 19th over that span, according to TruMedia. In other words, the “good” plays haven’t been nearly as productive and the bad plays have been downright catastrophic."

What’s Really Wrong With the Rams Offense?

Matthew Stafford was supposed to supercharge Sean McVay’s scheme. But the offense has become stagnant in recent weeks. What gives?

www.theringer.com

 

[Kupped]

Nice post. This sums things up for this thread for me. The question is whether he's the right guy to run this defense going forward. The Rams see themselves as a top team, a top contender. Is he the guy they want running such a big part of the engine?

It's a complicated question. He's definitely learning on the job I think first off and that is not his fault. He is not to blame for not knowing quarters and having a deep grasp of the Fangio defense. That's on McVay for bringing him in to what is a pressure cooker for a guy who will be learning on the job.

Also the players are not ideal. That is in large part on the DC, who needs to communicate the keys he requires to the leadership where the Rams have shown they will go get what you want. To a greater or lesser degree he should have seen the problems with Rapp and Reeder and the edge and pounded the table. Now maybe he did and this factors in to the decision greatly on whether to fire him, since the Rams do know what he was saying prior to the season, we just won't know all that.

But it's also kind of like the move they made at QB. Is the guy good enough to set him aside as a concern and keep building around him? This is why it's wise I think to let him finish out the season. By season's end if this defense isn't playing good ball then the decision will be clear IMO.

Given Morris has been with the organization less than a full season and that they brought him in to run the existing defense, I'm not going to collar him with any of the personnel decision making. Sorry.

Long and Burgess aren't "bad fits".. they're just not any good. Rapp? Sure, we can argue about usage.. but is that usage a band-aid to cover the fact that the scouting and development completely missed on Burgess?

Morris definitely needs to find some solutions, otherwise more teams will try do what the 9ers and Packers just did. It's not easy to do and those teams have offensive personnel to execute the specific game plan that tortures the Rams defense as constructed.

That being said.. the team is going absolutely nowhere if the offense doesn't get its act together because, right now, it's the much bigger problem.

 

[payote75]

It's amazing how "some people" see the articles they want to but don't see Dan Olovsky on video on ESPN and up above as well as well as many others saying the same.
The down fall began when teams realised that if they play keep away it provides the best game plan to beat the rams the defense took a tumble even more so almost at the same exact time as the offense. Both defense and the offense go hand and hand like chocolate and peanut butter. Now mcvay is an offensive coach he needs the ball we need possessions. So teams like "oh you want to play like that well we will just keep it out of your offenses hands oh and if we do that you and your offense lose your composure well hell that's just a bonus thanks for handling us 3 games rams!!!"

Even Aaron Rodgers said as much about how the defense plays and how they deploy Ramsey.

It's like two game plans in one of keep away.

Defense- Take what they give you with bullshit zone and 2 high safeties run pass methodically whatever and keep it away from Ramsey and negate pass rush with short quick passes. Boom keep away

Offense??- well shit what a bonus we tiring out the defense keeping it away from the offense and while they still are somewhat dangerous they get all discombobulated with turnovers bad plays confusion forced throws. Bonus all around.

This team will literally beat itself if we just play Pop Warner ball!!!

Oh and special teams thank you for any bonus turnovers or not being able to return shit

The units playing like separate teams not complimentary football to one another.

Lastly we are right to be focused on turnovers but damn can we force some turnovers too. Maybe at least get some of those possessions back????

Not in sync!!!

So on positive side trying as much as I can to be positive I think it can be fixed if we change certain things up especially defensively.

 

[Kupped]

It's amazing how "some people" see the articles they want to but don't see Dan Olovsky on video on ESPN and up above as well as well as many others saying the same.
The down fall began when teams realised that if they play keep away it provides the best game plan to beat the rams the defense took a tumble even more so almost at the same exact time as the offense. Both defense and the offense go hand and hand like chocolate and peanut butter. Now mcvay is an offensive coach he needs the ball we need possessions. So teams like "oh you want to play like that well we will just keep it out of your offenses hands oh and if we do that you and your offense lose your composure well hell that's just a bonus thanks for handling us 3 games rams!!!"

Even Aaron Rodgers said as much about how the defense plays and how they deploy Ramsey.

It's like two game plans in one of keep away.

Defense- Take what they give you with bullshit zone and 2 high safeties run pass methodically whatever and keep it away from Ramsey and negate pass rush with short quick passes. Boom keep away

Offense??- well shit what a bonus we tiring out the defense keeping it away from the offense and while they still are somewhat dangerous they get all discombobulated with turnovers bad plays confusion forced throws. Bonus all around.

This team will literally beat itself if we just play Pop Warner ball!!!

Oh and special teams thank you for any bonus turnovers or not being able to return shit

The units playing like separate teams not complimentary football to one another.

Lastly we are right to be focused on turnovers but damn can we force some turnovers too. Maybe at least get some of those possessions back????

Not in sync!!!

So on positive side trying as much as I can to be positive I think it can be fixed if we change certain things up especially defensively.

You can just reply to me or @ me, really.
I saw the Orlovsky thing. Yep, that’s a problem. No one is saying the defense doesn’t. It was one play.
Again.., yes.. the D needs adjustments. But… again.. they’re limited because of personnel.

You also came to a completely false conclusion here…
“The down fall began when teams realised that if they play keep away..”

That’s just not true.

The downfall started with the turnovers.
The Rams D held the Titans to a season low in yards and the Rams won the TOP battle by more than 4 minutes.

Yeah.. more forced turnovers would be nice!

But..
special teams got a turnover against the Pack and the offense did nothing.

The defense is going the wrong way at the moment and has to be better.

But the offense is the much bigger problem for this team.

In addition to turnovers, it’s fallen off a cliff in multiple ways.

More concerning? The articles coming out pointing out that second half of season regression by the Rams offense is a year-to-year issue and people are saying they can’t self-scout.

Big.. BIG problem.. in addition to devastating turnovers.

 

[payote75]

You can just reply to me or @ me, really.
I saw the Orlovsky thing. Yep, that’s a problem. No one is saying the defense doesn’t. It was one play.
Again.., yes.. the D needs adjustments. But… again.. they’re limited because of personnel.

You also came to a completely false conclusion here…
“The down fall began when teams realised that if they play keep away..”

That’s just not true.

The downfall started with the turnovers.
The Rams D held the Titans to a season low in yards and the Rams won the TOP battle by more than 4 minutes.

Yeah.. more forced turnovers would be nice!

But..
special teams got a turnover against the Pack and the offense did nothing.

The defense is going the wrong way at the moment and has to be better.

But the offense is the much bigger problem for this team.

In addition to turnovers, it’s fallen off a cliff in multiple ways.

More concerning? The articles coming out pointing out that second half of season regression by the Rams offense is a year-to-year issue and people are saying they can’t self-scout.

Big.. BIG problem.. in addition to devastating turnovers.

Yea your absolutely right it's the offense and mcvay yup....and everyone sees your right. We shall see I guess won't we.

 

[Kupped]

Yea your absolutely right it's the offense and mcvay yup....and everyone sees your right. We shall see I guess won't we.

So, I address your exact assertions, show where one is critically flawed, and this is the response?

I appreciate the thoughtful discourse and openness in discussing the Rams and the team’s problems right now.

 

[payote75]

So, I address your exact assertions, show where one is critically flawed, and this is the response?

I appreciate the thoughtful discourse and openness in discussing the Rams and the team’s problems right now.

I tried but your beating a dead horse a broken record and from what I can see the others don't see it your way entirely. I will stick to my guns that's it's all 3 phases failing but the defense more. You stick to yours it's the offense. For the 5th time let's just agree to disagree

 

[Kupped]

I tried but your beating a dead horse a broken record and from what I can see the others don't see it your way entirely. I will stick to my guns that's it's all 3 phases failing but the defense more. You stick to yours it's the offense. For the 5th time let's just agree to disagree

All 3?

Except for the part where you say it all started with the defense.

All 3 phases matter, absolutely, and all 3 phases need work on the Rams.

AND the offense is the biggest problem of the three right now.

AND… McVay is the guy in charge. I have ZERO interest in firing him, but if he doesn’t grow, the team won’t get to where we want it to go.

 

[snackdaddy]

Colin Cowherd talk about the comments made by Troy Aikman. That super teams don't work in the NFL. Cowherd made a good point. What is our identity? Are we a pass first team? Are we a balance the run/pass ratio team? Are we a physical at the point of attack team on defense? Are we a finesse team on offense?

McVay has been trying to figure that out since he got away from the run game and play action. The play calling just doesn't scream "Genius" anymore. Its like he's a boxer trying to feel his way through the early rounds to see how to attack his opponent. But if that opponent lands haymakers early, you're trying to win by knockout because you're too far behind to win on points. Meanwhile your opponent keeps moving and jabbing because he's ahead. Then you're desperate and have to flail away. If he doesn't get that figured out we'll be knocked out in the playoffs if we even make it that far.

 

[payote75]

Dude which part of agree to disagree don't you get. Ok I surrender I believe your wrong you believe I am so I will end it there and read up on the majority of the forum. Christ!!!