Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

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LesBaker

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http://chicagosuntimes.com/sports/mike-ditka-weighs-in-on-ferguson/

Mike Ditka weighs in:

Before Sunday’s game, five St. Louis Rams players took the field in a “hands up, don’t shoot” solidarity protest for Ferguson and Michael Brown.

Neither the NFL nor the Rams penalized the players for their actions. When asked if they should have, Mike Ditka said:

“It’s a shame this thing has come to this,” Ditka told the Chicago Sun-Times for his weekly feature column. “The shame of it is, I’m not sure they care about Michael Brown or anything else. This was a reason to protest and to go out and loot. Is this the way to celebrate the memory of Michael Brown? Is this an excuse to be lawless? Somebody has to tell me that. I don’t understand it.

I understand what the Rams’ take on this was. I’m embarrassed for the players more than anything. They want to take a political stand on this? Well, there are a lot of other things that have happened in our society that people have not stood up and disagreed about.

“I wasn’t in Ferguson. I don’t know exactly what happened. But I know one thing: If we dismantle and limit the power of our policemen any more than we have already, then we’re going to have a lot of problems in this country.

“What do you do if someone pulls a gun on you or is robbing a store and you stop them? I don’t want to hear about this hands-up crap. That’s not what happened. I don’t know exactly what did happen, but I know that’s not what happened. This policeman’s life is ruined. Why? Because we have to break somebody down. Because we have to even out the game. I don’t know. I don’t get it. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.”

Like Barkley, Ditka just says what he thinks and is so plain spoken that it's like they both have this crucible in their head that burns of any bullshit before they open their mouth. Right to the point, to the heart of the matter. They have a way of distilling the issue.

I'd love to have dinner and drinks with those two. As long as one of them is picking up the check of course.
 

LesBaker

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I basically agree with everything you said, but the fact that the Rams chose not to punish the involved players did mean in this case they had the right.

It also means the Rams come off as endorsing what was done... which is why certain people are upset.

And I don't like that either.

As the situation has erupted I have to wonder if Fisher or Snead didn't at least say "hey guys lets not do things like that anymore mkay?"
 

bluecoconuts

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I basically agree with everything you said, but the fact that the Rams chose not to punish the involved players did mean in this case they had the right.

It also means the Rams come off as endorsing what was done... which is why certain people are upset.

I don't think it means the Rams come off endorsing the message because they didn't punish them. I think the Rams recognize their players should be able to have an opinion on the matter and express that.

People say they should go down there then, but when do they have time? If they went out there and actively protested you think people wouldn't be upset? You bet your ass they would, probably more so than this. Plus it puts them, the product, at risk. There are people in this thread who are saying they should have done something on their own time, when they said they didn't like them expressing themselves on twitter in another thread about that issue. It seems no matter what they did, other than shutting up, people were going to get upset. Saying they should do it on their own time isn't fair, because they don't have their own time, they always represent the team.

It's the same thing as the military, you represent your branch and your country 24/7, if you're in uniform or not. The military happens to have rules about this though, while the NFL doesn't. I just don't think its fair to almost villify these guys for expressing their disappointment in something. If they're right or wrong isn't the point, they should be able to do it.
 

iced

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So do you consider it "out of our lane" when a soldier makes opposing statements against the president? (Can't tell you how many times I heard such things on deployment)

or how about when a veteran calls out the president?

like that worked with obama
 

Boffo97

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I don't think it means the Rams come off endorsing the message because they didn't punish them. I think the Rams recognize their players should be able to have an opinion on the matter and express that.

People say they should go down there then, but when do they have time? If they went out there and actively protested you think people wouldn't be upset? You bet your ass they would, probably more so than this. Plus it puts them, the product, at risk. There are people in this thread who are saying they should have done something on their own time, when they said they didn't like them expressing themselves on twitter in another thread about that issue. It seems no matter what they did, other than shutting up, people were going to get upset. Saying they should do it on their own time isn't fair, because they don't have their own time, they always represent the team.

It's the same thing as the military, you represent your branch and your country 24/7, if you're in uniform or not. The military happens to have rules about this though, while the NFL doesn't. I just don't think its fair to almost villify these guys for expressing their disappointment in something. If they're right or wrong isn't the point, they should be able to do it.
Personally, I'm not saying anything about how they should go down there or anything else. My thinking about how non punishment makes it look like the Rams endorsing the message goes differently:

1. The symbol of raised hands makes no sense unless you're asserting, counter to the facts in the matter, that Brown was surrendering when Wilson shot him, rather than attacking Wilson and Wilson acting in self defense.

2. Being forced to take a life in self defense is probably already a nightmare scenario for police, but seeing a fellow officer's life ruined by this sort of disregard for the truth, and seeing uniformed members of your favorite sports team making this gesture on game day feels like adding insult to injury.

So it goes way beyond expressing disappointment in something. It's perpetuating a falsehood that makes the jobs of all police a bit more dangerous, and it feels like telling such people that they shouldn't consider the Rams to be THEIR team.
 

RamFan503

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I don't think it means the Rams come off endorsing the message because they didn't punish them. I think the Rams recognize their players should be able to have an opinion on the matter and express that.

People say they should go down there then, but when do they have time? If they went out there and actively protested you think people wouldn't be upset? You bet your ass they would, probably more so than this. Plus it puts them, the product, at risk. There are people in this thread who are saying they should have done something on their own time, when they said they didn't like them expressing themselves on twitter in another thread about that issue. It seems no matter what they did, other than shutting up, people were going to get upset. Saying they should do it on their own time isn't fair, because they don't have their own time, they always represent the team.

It's the same thing as the military, you represent your branch and your country 24/7, if you're in uniform or not. The military happens to have rules about this though, while the NFL doesn't. I just don't think its fair to almost villify these guys for expressing their disappointment in something. If they're right or wrong isn't the point, they should be able to do it.

I wasn't going to comment further as I just want this to end but I will say one more piece and then yawlz can have at it - within reason of course.:D

While I would agree that it may not come off as the Rams endorsing the message to most as I think most people realize the no win situation the team is in on this. But I highly doubt the lack of punishment was because the organization believes their players were correct in doing this. I would guess that it was more that punishing them would have prolonged the issue and brought even more attention while potentially adding to the unrest and increased security risks for the team and its fans.

When do they have time? Monday and Tuesday when they don't have practice would have worked. I keep seeing players at basketball and hockey games. Is this not personal time? Johnny football goes out on the town with his mom and his coach even says that he didn't violate any team rules because he was on his own time. The players agreement only allows so much time for practice. Let's not act like they are studying tape and practicing all their waking hours. They have personal time.

You can't compare these guys to the military. And the reason for the rules regarding the military is completely different than this situation. Even still, I don't think that if a member of the military were to do something like this while out of uniform, that it would constitute a punishable offense - NJP or otherwise. Though the gesture for a person in the military might get a pretty stern eye from others in uniform. If it is not related to chain of command or military institutions, I believe a soldier has the right to speak publicly - yes?

As you know, the military is on call 24/7. Players are not. Players can and do make speaking engagements and have lives outside of football, get paid to endorse products, go out on the town after practice, and can say just about anything they want while out of uniform. Sure they are under a microscope in many cases but that also allows them to make a greater impact if they do actually speak out.

I honestly don't think people would be that upset about these players going out and actually saying what they felt. I sure wouldn't. They could have spoken about keeping the protests peaceful and that something needs to be done about what they viewed as a civil rights issue that stems deeper than Fergusson. They would have no doubt been echoed on all the major and local media outlets. Sure some would disapprove. But they would have their actual words to fall back on - not some lame gesture that may or may not have been taken incorrectly.

I happen to believe that what they did deflected some of the ire toward the team rather than on themselves personally. To me, that is a bit cowardly and makes the gesture even more immature. They could have had far greater impact, made their actual stance known, and not brought the franchise into the fight simply by speaking out as individuals that happen to play professional football for the Rams.
 

Ramhusker

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I wasn't going to comment further as I just want this to end but I will say one more piece and then yawlz can have at it - within reason of course.:D

While I would agree that it may not come off as the Rams endorsing the message to most as I think most people realize the no win situation the team is in on this. But I highly doubt the lack of punishment was because the organization believes their players were correct in doing this. I would guess that it was more that punishing them would have prolonged the issue and brought even more attention while potentially adding to the unrest and increased security risks for the team and its fans.

When do they have time? Monday and Tuesday when they don't have practice would have worked. I keep seeing players at basketball and hockey games. Is this not personal time? Johnny football goes out on the town with his mom and his coach even says that he didn't violate any team rules because he was on his own time. The players agreement only allows so much time for practice. Let's not act like they are studying tape and practicing all their waking hours. They have personal time.

You can't compare these guys to the military. And the reason for the rules regarding the military is completely different than this situation. Even still, I don't think that if a member of the military were to do something like this while out of uniform, that it would constitute a punishable offense - NJP or otherwise. Though the gesture for a person in the military might get a pretty stern eye from others in uniform. If it is not related to chain of command or military institutions, I believe a soldier has the right to speak publicly - yes?

As you know, the military is on call 24/7. Players are not. Players can and do make speaking engagements and have lives outside of football, get paid to endorse products, go out on the town after practice, and can say just about anything they want while out of uniform. Sure they are under a microscope in many cases but that also allows them to make a greater impact if they do actually speak out.

I honestly don't think people would be that upset about these players going out and actually saying what they felt. I sure wouldn't. They could have spoken about keeping the protests peaceful and that something needs to be done about what they viewed as a civil rights issue that stems deeper than Fergusson. They would have no doubt been echoed on all the major and local media outlets. Sure some would disapprove. But they would have their actual words to fall back on - not some lame gesture that may or may not have been taken incorrectly.

I happen to believe that what they did deflected some of the ire toward the team rather than on themselves personally. To me, that is a bit cowardly and makes the gesture even more immature. They could have had far greater impact, made their actual stance known, and not brought the franchise into the fight simply by speaking out as individuals that happen to play professional football for the Rams.



No, the UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, is usually pretty clear on this. you belong to the US government while enlisted, lock, stock,and barrel. Your actions while in public, in and out of uniform, are governed by the UCMJ. They can go as far as telling you which establishments you can and cannot go to and what not to say or comment on. It doesn't mean military members don't violate those restrictions from time to time and sometimes get away with it. I'd say the " hands up" gesture could land you in some hot water depending on the situation.
 

bluecoconuts

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I wasn't going to comment further as I just want this to end but I will say one more piece and then yawlz can have at it - within reason of course.:D

While I would agree that it may not come off as the Rams endorsing the message to most as I think most people realize the no win situation the team is in on this. But I highly doubt the lack of punishment was because the organization believes their players were correct in doing this. I would guess that it was more that punishing them would have prolonged the issue and brought even more attention while potentially adding to the unrest and increased security risks for the team and its fans.

When do they have time? Monday and Tuesday when they don't have practice would have worked. I keep seeing players at basketball and hockey games. Is this not personal time? Johnny football goes out on the town with his mom and his coach even says that he didn't violate any team rules because he was on his own time. The players agreement only allows so much time for practice. Let's not act like they are studying tape and practicing all their waking hours. They have personal time.

You can't compare these guys to the military. And the reason for the rules regarding the military is completely different than this situation. Even still, I don't think that if a member of the military were to do something like this while out of uniform, that it would constitute a punishable offense - NJP or otherwise. Though the gesture for a person in the military might get a pretty stern eye from others in uniform. If it is not related to chain of command or military institutions, I believe a soldier has the right to speak publicly - yes?

As you know, the military is on call 24/7. Players are not. Players can and do make speaking engagements and have lives outside of football, get paid to endorse products, go out on the town after practice, and can say just about anything they want while out of uniform. Sure they are under a microscope in many cases but that also allows them to make a greater impact if they do actually speak out.

I honestly don't think people would be that upset about these players going out and actually saying what they felt. I sure wouldn't. They could have spoken about keeping the protests peaceful and that something needs to be done about what they viewed as a civil rights issue that stems deeper than Fergusson. They would have no doubt been echoed on all the major and local media outlets. Sure some would disapprove. But they would have their actual words to fall back on - not some lame gesture that may or may not have been taken incorrectly.

I happen to believe that what they did deflected some of the ire toward the team rather than on themselves personally. To me, that is a bit cowardly and makes the gesture even more immature. They could have had far greater impact, made their actual stance known, and not brought the franchise into the fight simply by speaking out as individuals that happen to play professional football for the Rams.

I just have a hard time believing if they went out there to protest people would be okay with it. It would be the same story, Rams players are protesting, only they would be holding signs up instead of their hands. I'm not saying they don't have personal time, I'm saying they always represent the Rams. When Johnny Football goes to a club, he's on his personal time, but if he goes and spouts a bunch of racial slurs, he still gets in trouble with the club because he represents them.

Military members have the right to protest and such outside of uniform (protest something against them), but they're not allowed to endorse things, which protesting is in a way. Its the same reason why they weren't supposed to do the ALS ice bucket challenge. Even in their own personal time, they're limited. They can't endorse something in or out of uniform, engage in any porn or something to that nature, etc. Very often they get slapped with an NJP for doing things like this.


On an unrelated (to this reply) note, even the police are divided on this. A group of black St Louis police officers expressed their support for the receivers.
 

Boffo97

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I just have a hard time believing if they went out there to protest people would be okay with it. It would be the same story, Rams players are protesting, only they would be holding signs up instead of their hands.
A. At least then, the protest wouldn't be on gameday and in full uniform. So, people would be a lot more okay with it right there.

B. Much would depend on what precisely the signs said. The symbolism of the hands up gesture is pretty clearly that having hands up means don't shoot, which is both ignoring reality and very demeaning to law enforcement. It implies they need such a reminder to not shoot innocent African Americans. If the players' statements or signs said "F*** the police", yeah, it'd still be a big to do. Pretty much anything below that probably wouldn't have even made the news.
 

RamFan503

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Exactly. Just...freak everything. If you're black, Oriental, Hispanic, or LGBT, you can expect to be judged by twelve; that is, if you're lucky. Otherwise, you get toted by six.
Come on man. I'll give you some of this but really? This was a fucking tragedy and this cop needs to pay. Of that I have little doubt. But let's not make this completely about damning one segment of society and giving all others a pass.

But yeah - no fucking indictment? Seriously?

Personally, I think there needs to be a far better job done in general when it comes to giving someone a badge and the inherent position to use force as a means for keeping the peace. I don't think for one second that this cop feared for his life - nor do I think that if the victim was actually trying to resist, this cop could have gotten that choke hold on him. That POS who someone bestowed a badge upon needs to be behind bars. What he did was worse than criminal. He betrayed the public trust and killed someone while pulling his mind numbing power trip.

Maybe someone in law enforcement can fill us in on what kinds of psychological evaluations cops go through or what kinds of red flags they look for. Because to me, this doesn't strike as a normal everyday cop making a mistake or only in this situation showing what he was capable of and all too willing to do.

What a sad commentary on the human condition.
 

Boffo97

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Come on man. I'll give you some of this but really? This was a freaking tragedy and this cop needs to pay. Of that I have little doubt. But let's not make this completely about damning one segment of society and giving all others a pass.

But yeah - no freaking indictment? Seriously?

Personally, I think there needs to be a far better job done in general when it comes to giving someone a badge and the inherent position to use force as a means for keeping the peace. I don't think for one second that this cop feared for his life - nor do I think that if the victim was actually trying to resist, this cop could have gotten that choke hold on him. That POS who someone bestowed a badge upon needs to be behind bars. What he did was worse than criminal. He betrayed the public trust and killed someone while pulling his mind numbing power trip.

Maybe someone in law enforcement can fill us in on what kinds of psychological evaluations cops go through or what kinds of red flags they look for. Because to me, this doesn't strike as a normal everyday cop making a mistake or only in this situation showing what he was capable of and all too willing to do.

What a sad commentary on the human condition.
I'm still not sure what said indictment would be for. The forensics investigation completely backed up the account that Brown was attacking Wilson, not surrendering.

When police are being attacked, they have to defend themselves. It's just too bad this one has still had his life ruined anyway.
 

RamFan503

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I'm still not sure what said indictment would be for. The forensics investigation completely backed up the account that Brown was attacking Wilson, not surrendering.

When police are being attacked, they have to defend themselves. It's just too bad this one has still had his life ruined anyway.
I was referring to no indictment in the Eric Garner case - not the Brown case. Absolutely apples vs oranges in my opinion.
 

bluecoconuts

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Come on man. I'll give you some of this but really? This was a freaking tragedy and this cop needs to pay. Of that I have little doubt. But let's not make this completely about damning one segment of society and giving all others a pass.

But yeah - no freaking indictment? Seriously?

Personally, I think there needs to be a far better job done in general when it comes to giving someone a badge and the inherent position to use force as a means for keeping the peace. I don't think for one second that this cop feared for his life - nor do I think that if the victim was actually trying to resist, this cop could have gotten that choke hold on him. That POS who someone bestowed a badge upon needs to be behind bars. What he did was worse than criminal. He betrayed the public trust and killed someone while pulling his mind numbing power trip.

Maybe someone in law enforcement can fill us in on what kinds of psychological evaluations cops go through or what kinds of red flags they look for. Because to me, this doesn't strike as a normal everyday cop making a mistake or only in this situation showing what he was capable of and all too willing to do.

What a sad commentary on the human condition.

Most oral boards and psych evals aren't all that difficult to pass, unless you're just totally off the rails.

Plus a lot of guys go in with the best intentions, then when they get on the job they become more and more jaded and paranoid. It's an unfortunate part of the job, a lot of guys get the mentality of "I'm going home to my family and will do whatever it takes", very similar to the military mindset when going on missions.
 

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Cook says 'Hands Up' not meant to disrespect police
• By Jim Thomas

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_ea7afa10-2b89-5809-9c2d-d67f67bfe441.html

Tight end Jared Cook tried to make it as clear as possible Wednesday that the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" gesture by he and four other Rams players was not meant as a slight or slam of police officers.

"Why would we come at the police in a disrespectful way when we work with the police in the community all the time?" Cook said following the team's afternoon practice at Rams Park. "The police are up here every day. There were four police cars here this morning when I pulled into work.

"The police have a picnic in the summer in our parking lot where they bring their kids and their children to meet-and-greet and have fun with us. So why would I disrespect a group of men that we have complete respect for in the community? That help us every day?"

Obviously many police officers in the St. Louis area and perhaps elsewhere did not take the gesture that way _ a gesture made when the five Rams players came out of the tunnel for pre-game introductions prior to Sunday's 52-0 victory over the Oakland Raiders.

It prompted an angry statement by the St. Louis Police Officers Association, which represents city police, and also drew criticism from the St. Louis County Police Association, and the Missouri Fraternal Order of Police.

Angry fans said they would no longer attend games, and a bar owner in south St. Louis said his establishment would now have its happy hours during Kansas City Chiefs games instead of Rams contests.

Cook himself said he has received numerous threats via social media, including his Facebook page.

"That's how people chose to operate their lives," Cook said. "I feel like as men, just like me and you are in communication right now . . . we should be able to sit down and talk about our problems.

"There's no reason to send threats to hype up the situation that's already intensified. We can sit down and talk about our problems. If we can't, then let's just agree to disagree. There's no wrong in that. People have different opinions. People have different views. We're grown."

Cook said he wasn't sure if the threats he received were serious, or sarcastic, or just people blowing off steam.

"It's all on the computer," he said. "How can you really tell if somebody's typing (threats on) keys?"

Cook was designated as kind of the unofficial spokesman for the five players, a group that also included wide receivers Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, Kenny Britt, and Chris Givens.

Cook said he was surprised by the negative reaction to the "Hands Up" gesture

"I was surprised because it was hard for me to understand how men of the community and men of such stature in your city (can) come together and try to make something harmful and negative for each others.

"The Rams, the NFL, the NFL players have never condoned violence. They've never condoned anything negative in the community. So why start now? Why do we want to bring that back into something that's so good and so beautiful, and that could have been used to help young men and help young women learn how to talk about their problems and become bigger than the problem?"

Fisher met with the five players as a group Wednesday morning and Cook said the meeting was "eye-opening" with respect to the insight Fisher provided on "people's reaction around the state. And Rams fans. And things like that."

Cook said the players have not been told or asked to refrain from using the "Hands Up" gesture again. So will they?

"Um, I think we kind of got our point across," Cook replied. "Especially now, I think the world kind of understands a little bit more why we did it."

The "Hands Up" gesture got national, and in some cases, international attention, including media outlets or programs that don't normally deal with the world of sports. For example, on the Daily Show television program host Jon Stewart did a segment on the "Hands Up" gesture, poking fun at some of the police reaction to the gesture in St. Louis as well as the "apology/non-apology" involving St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar and Rams executive vice president of football operations Kevin Demoff.

Stewart even made a joke at the expense of coach Jeff Fisher, saying, "I didn't know (actor) Nick Nolte was coaching the Rams," after showing a shot of Fisher from Monday's press conference.

(Fisher said he was unaware of the Nolte reference, but said he was a fan of some of Nolte's earlier work.)

Cook said his purpose Wednesday was to "clean up" misperceptions about the message the players were trying to get across with the "Hands Up" gesture. He said it was meant as a message of support for the people in Ferguson _ and around the country and the world _ that may be dealing with similar issues.

And it was also meant as a message of support for peaceful protesters and those trying to clean up and rebuild Ferguson. He said Rams players are already working on some projects, including a coat drive for youth and adults in the Ferguson area, and the Motion for Kids program Dec. 20 at the Edward Jones Dome. The Motion for Kids program, championed in the past by former Rams running back Steven Jackson, provides Christmas gifts for needy children.

Despite the flood of negative responses, Cook said he was aware of positive reaction from many corners. He was unaware, however, of the statement of support for the five Rams players from the Ethical Society of Police, an association of African-American police officers in St. Louis.

The statement, put out by Gloria McCollum, general counsel for the Ethical Society, read in part:

"We think that their actions were commendable, and that they should not be ridiculed, disciplined, or punished for taking a stand on this very important issue which is of great concern around the world and especially in the community where these players work."

And in a jab at the statement put out earlier in the week by business manager Jeff Roorda of the St. Louis Police Officers Association, McCollum added:

"The statement of the St. Louis Police Officers Association does not reflect the opinions of the majority of African-American police officers in the department because there are no African-American officers on their governing board and they have a minimal amount of African-American members."

When told of the support from the Ethical Society police officers, Cook's eyes welled up and he fought back tears.

"That's pretty amazing," Cook said. "That shows a lot of character. That shows a lot of maturity. . . for guys like that to come out and issue a statement. Those are people that you can work with, and those are people that you can make your community better with. It's not about fighting each other. It's not about wrong and right. It's about treating people with respect. You can operate and respect without having to come at somebody in a negative way."

And for any Rams fans who say they no longer will support the team and come to games, Cook said:

"They have to understand that we're ambassadors for them as well as other parts of St. Louis. As Rams, and as the NFL, we represent everybody. We bring people together for a common goal and that's to represent their team. And maybe other people around the world that fly in from other places to represent their team. It's a common place for people to get together and have fun.

"It's the Edward Jones Dome baby! The Greatest Show on Turf baby! How would you not want to have fun and enjoy that?

And he indicated that it's still too early to give up on the 2014 season.

"So for the Rams fans out there that want to give up their PSLs," Cook said. "I wouldn't do that just yet," he said.