Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

[blue4]

Only on TV will you ever see anyone shoot someone in the leg. To small a target and if you miss you could end up dead yourself.

I'm pretty sure every police academy and concealed carry training center teach you not to shoot to wound. It's hard to wound enough to stop a person without killing them or maiming them for life eventually anyway. My wife works in an ER in the inner city and has seen people do amazing things when they really should have been dead already. So you are definitely correct.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I've shot guns and rifles, but it's been years and years since I have and I'm nowhere near knowledgeable about the impact a .38 has and so maybe he shot six times because he had to.

This entire thing is so distasteful and this kids family and the cop and his family are going to need years to rebound from this if they ever can.

Police are trained to dump mag on target, often too quickly. The problem is, they have other aspects of their job and can't get enough range time, so they're told to just unload and hopefully you hit. That's why you always hear stories about shooting someone 18 times or something, that's their job.

When I was in the Army, my old platoon sergeant said that a guy in our platoon who was 100% on the range (every shot hit true) would be lucky to be 30% in a combat situation. And we were a special operations unit who got far more trigger time than standard units. Standard units are even less, generally a guy who's 100%/would be less than 5% in combat.

So then you have to imagine cops, they don't have as much training, they're not used to these situations, their heart rate is through the roof, they're not going to hit much for the most part. So they mag dump. Where they're at close range they'll get plenty of hits, at far range not as much.

In terms of how long you can go with being shot, it all depends. I was hit by an AK (7.62x39) in my hip and back, continued fighting for another 10 hours because we couldnt get a chopper in. I didn't feel pain really (just a little discomfort) until I was on the bird and my adrenaline stopped. I've seen a a lot of bad guys go down with one or two shots, and some who fight on through 14 or 15. When they were on drugs they could sometimes take damn near 30 rounds and keep going, including head shots.

So when you talk about wounding shots, its hard to really do things like that. Hollywood makes it seem easy, but when shit hits the fan, its hard to do. Most important thing is to get hits on target. Hence mag dump. If you ever go by a police range you will hear them all the time dump half a mag each time, and when its panic time they'll dump it all.

Now I don't think that means Brown deserved to die, he was a POS, but didn't deserve to die. I just understand why Wilson would shoot so many times, and why cops don't shoot to wound. I still don't think there needs to be a big fuss over the receivers though, even the police don't agree, and it seems the black police officers aren't fans of things either, and supported the receivers. That's pretty telling in my opinion.

 

[blackbart]

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/12...ld-stand-to-support-the-Rams-football-players


St. Louis is more racially segregated than many of us ever truly understood. Even the police officers in the city have separate organizationsadvocating on behalf of white and black interests.
When Jeff Roorda and the predominantly white St. Louis Police Officers Association came out with a statement to blast the pre-game "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" gesture done by five players from the St. Louis Rams and declared that they should be fined, suspended, and offer an apology, it was wrongly assumed by many that Roorda spoke for all of the police in St. Louis. He did not.

The black police officer's association in St. Louisissued a bold statement declaring their complete support for the players. Gloria McCollum, general counsel for their association, just issued the following statement, which you can read below the fold, on their behalf.

THE ETHICAL SOCIETY OF POLICE, is the primary voice of African
American Police Officers in St. Louis City, and as such it COMPLETELY SUPPORTS THE ACTIONS OF THE ST. LOUIS RAMS FOOTBALL PLAYERS IN WHICH THEY SHOWED SUPPORT FOR THE FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN BY ENTERING THE STADIUM WITH THEIR HANDS UP.
We think that their actions were commendable and that they should not be ridiculed, disciplined or punished for taking a stand on this very important issue which is of great concern around the world and especially in the community where these players work.

THE STATEMENTS OF THE ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS
ASSOCIATION DO NOT REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF THE MAJORITY OF AFRICAN AMERICAN POLICE OFFICERS IN THE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THERE ARE NO AFRICAN AMERICAN OFFICERS ON THEIR GOVERNING BOARD AND THEY HAVE A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN MEMBERS.

The Ethical Society of Police has been the primary bridge between [the] African American community and the police department for many years. The Ethical Society will use its best efforts to continue to work with the community leaders and the Department of Justice to address issues that affect our community such as racial profiling, police brutality and disparities in hiring and disciplining practices of African American Officers.

While it is often widely assumed that black and white officers feel the same about issues of race and police brutality, it is clear that this is not the case in St. Louis and that the divide between officers there echoes the deeper divide in the city itself.

I this this is a great example of how NOT to rid ourselves of racial inequity.

Any time we allow membership to a organization, college, contest, ANYTHING based on race we are allowing segregation. It is wrong and all of it should be stopped.

Congrssional Black Caucus, Congressional Hispanic Caucus, black only colleges, African Americans (most have never even been to Africa) BET Miss Black America, etc etc etc

All of these things are divisive and should be done away with. If you don't think so just try any of that with Caucasian in front of it and see how wrong it is.

 

[blackbart]

The guy was being arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. It's just wrong. I don't know how any sane person could not indict him. It's pretty clear that the prosecutor did not want to take this to trial. I'd say the same thing about Ferguson.



Excessive force(for Ferguson).

NYC - Watch the video, the guy is belligerent and ready to put up a fight from the beginning. He was breaking the law first mistake. Don't put yourself in that situation and you don't have any of this fallout. He was being arrested, turn around and let them take you in to custody. No he wants to argue and put the police in a bad situation(guys just trying to do their job, they did not want to have to put themselves in danger to take this big dude down).

Ferguson, Excessive force is BS Brown was attacking a police officer, dipshit and criminal . All Brown had to do was get out of the street and keep moving.

Both of these incidents were instigated by the guys who made bad decisions and paid the ultimate price. They are not martyrs they are criminals.

 

[blackbart]

They should have just come out with a press conference it would have got their perspective and point across without all the negative reactions. This gesture is not a positive one, it is a negative message toward the police and has been prove to be an out right lie by forensic evidence.

http://www.foxsports.com/midwest/st...son-gesture-120314?cmpid=tsmfb:fscom:nflonfox

 

[LesBaker]

That NYC cop should be tried for homicide. This is a very disturbing video and when I saw the officers statement I wanted to puke. He's a piece of shit. I cannot believe this isn't going to trial there is video of him breaking the NYPD rules , choke holds are not allowed.

This is fucked up.

 

[LesBaker]

I this this is a great example of how NOT to rid ourselves of racial inequity.

Any time we allow membership to a organization, college, contest, ANYTHING based on race we are allowing segregation. It is wrong and all of it should be stopped.

Congrssional Black Caucus, Congressional Hispanic Caucus, black only colleges, African Americans (most have never even been to Africa) BET Miss Black America, etc etc etc

All of these things are divisive and should be done away with. If you don't think so just try any of that with Caucasian in front of it and see how wrong it is.

I'm fine with it. Let me explain why and maybe it'll help you see my point of view and maybe even make you change your mind. Mind you I have had this discussion many times.

For many, many years I was self employed and owned a company that produced events/expos. Large consumer events. On occasion someone would mention that there are black events and expos around the country but there isn't a "white" expo and you couldn't ever get away with something like that because it would appear to be racist and exclusionary. I used to laugh and mention that there are thousands of events all across the country themed around Germans, Italians, Polish people and oodles of other "white" people.

The difference is that most (as in almost all) white people can tell you what their heritage is, where their ancestors came from, even if like me there are a few or more nations. Most (as in almost all) black people cannot tell you that. Many only know what state their ancestors were slaves in, and have no idea what nation they were taken from. If you ever visit Detroit go to the Museum of African American History, it has some very interesting displays and artifacts. One of them is a series of plexiglass cases representing "slave states" and people can take a small piece of paper fold it in half and drop it in so visitors can see what states had the most people/slaves in it. There are no cases for nations in Africa, and if there were they would be empty.

It's hard to understand if you're white, but I'm just gonna say this. I'm not for shutting down Italian American Community Centers and I'm not for stopping African American or Asian or Hispanic groups, clubs, colleges or anything else. Enough has been taken away from everyone, and certainly most of all from black Americans who have had every disadvantage hung around their neck.

Blackbart one of the ways you increase racism is by stripping away identity. People felt that it was important to start these clubs, colleges and associations and they exist because millions of people support them.

 

[blackbart]

I'm fine with it. Let me explain why and maybe it'll help you see my point of view and maybe even make you change your mind. Mind you I have had this discussion many times.

For many, many years I was self employed and owned a company that produced events/expos. Large consumer events. On occasion someone would mention that there are black events and expos around the country but there isn't a "white" expo and you couldn't ever get away with something like that because it would appear to be racist and exclusionary. I used to laugh and mention that there are thousands of events all across the country themed around Germans, Italians, Polish people and oodles of other "white" people.

The difference is that most (as in almost all) white people can tell you what their heritage is, where their ancestors came from, even if like me there are a few or more nations. Most (as in almost all) black people cannot tell you that. Many only know what state their ancestors were slaves in, and have no idea what nation they were taken from. If you ever visit Detroit go to the Museum of African American History, it has some very interesting displays and artifacts. One of them is a series of plexiglass cases representing "slave states" and people can take a small piece of paper fold it in half and drop it in so visitors can see what states had the most people/slaves in it. There are no cases for nations in Africa, and if there were they would be empty.

It's hard to understand if you're white, but I'm just gonna say this. I'm not for shutting down Italian American Community Centers and I'm not for stopping African American or Asian or Hispanic groups, clubs, colleges or anything else. Enough has been taken away from everyone, and certainly most of all from black Americans who have had every disadvantage hung around their neck.
Blackbart one of the ways you increase racism is by stripping away identity. People felt that it was important to start these clubs, colleges and associations and they exist because millions of people support them.

I understand what you are saying but by allowing these divided groups you will always have segregation. People scream about wanting to be the same, be treated the same, have the same opportunities but then want to be call or part of these divisive groups. Can it ever be both?

 

[LesBaker]

I understand what you are saying but by allowing these divided groups you will always have segregation. People scream about wanting to be the same, be treated the same, have the same opportunities but then want to be call or part of these divisive groups. Can it ever be both?

I don't think people want to BE the same, they want to be treated the same, equally and they want to be respected as people. You can have that and also have individual identity and even associations and organizations based on heritage, race, IQ (mensas), and a ton of other things too. Stopping a group of black attorneys, or Asian firemen or Hispanic accountants from getting together every month or at an annual meeting isn't going to help anything and in fact is a bad idea.

So YES it can be both, it should be actually..........do you see that? And it'll happen sooner if people who think it's divisive become understanding and see that it isn't.

 

[Ram_Rally]

NYC - Watch the video, the guy is belligerent and ready to put up a fight from the beginning. He was breaking the law first mistake. Don't put yourself in that situation and you don't have any of this fallout. He was being arrested, turn around and let them take you in to custody. No he wants to argue and put the police in a bad situation(guys just trying to do their job, they did not want to have to put themselves in danger to take this big dude down).

Ferguson, Excessive force is BS Brown was attacking a police officer, dipshit and criminal . All Brown had to do was get out of the street and keep moving.

Both of these incidents were instigated by the guys who made bad decisions and paid the ultimate price. They are not martyrs they are criminals.

I'm an African American who agreed with the Zimmerman verdict and the non indictment of Darren Wilson, but I can not agree with you on eric garner. He was not being belligerent. I've seen many people stand their ground when believing that they had no reason to be arrested, and they weren't choked to death for it. The man is clearly heard saying "I can't breathe!" And one officer applied even more force afterwards. It was ruled a homicide by two different coroners and the hold was banned for a reason. This is NOT a race issue (although this divide between "white racists" and "black thugs" over these cases saddens me beyond words). This is an excessive force issue with some cops thinking that a badge puts them above the people that they have sworn to protect.

 

[blackbart]

I don't think people want to BE the same, they want to be treated the same, equally and they want to be respected as people. You can have that and also have individual identity and even associations and organizations based on heritage, race, IQ (mensas), and a ton of other things too. Stopping a group of black attorneys, or Asian firemen or Hispanic accountants from getting together every month or at an annual meeting isn't going to help anything and in fact is a bad idea.

So YES it can be both, it should be actually..........do you see that? And it'll happen sooner if people who think it's divisive become understanding and see that it isn't.

I see that in a perfect world things like that might be possible, unfortunately that is not where we live.

 

[blackbart]

I'm an African American who agreed with the Zimmerman verdict and the non indictment of Darren Wilson, but I can not agree with you on eric garner. He was not being belligerent. I've seen many people stand their ground when believing that they had no reason to be arrested, and they weren't choked to death for it. The man is clearly heard saying "I can't breathe!" And one officer applied even more force afterwards. It was ruled a homicide by two different coroners and the hold was banned for a reason. This is NOT a race issue (although this divide between "white racists" and "black thugs" over these cases saddens me beyond words). This is an excessive force issue with some cops thinking that a badge puts them above the people that they have sworn to protect.

While I agree there is a problem I disagree the Garner was not being belligerent. I watched the video twice and saw a very large agitated guy yelling and gesturing that left now doubt that he was mad.

He was breaking the law, is there any doubt about that? Did he not know he was breaking the law? (I'm speculating that he did know that).

I did not hear if the officers asked him to give himself up. That is my only question about whether or not the use of force was needed. If they asked him to surrender and he did not he forced the confrontation to the next level. Bad idea.

 

[Ram_Rally]

While I agree there is a problem I disagree the Garner was not being belligerent. I watched the video twice and saw a very large agitated guy yelling and gesturing that left now doubt that he was mad.

He was breaking the law, is there any doubt about that? Did he not know he was breaking the law? (I'm speculating that he did know that).

I did not hear if the officers asked him to give himself up. That is my only question about whether or not the use of force was needed. If they asked him to surrender and he did not he forced the confrontation to the next level. Bad idea.

I'm not sure what law he broke when being approached. Many stories have been consistent that he had broken up a fight on the street and was asked if he was still selling illegal cigarettes, which he denied. I don't recall any cigarettes or evidence being found on his person. He did resist arrest but I'm sure that this isn't the first man to demonstrate frustration with an officer. The thing we can all Agree on is that he was not a threat and that once he was on that ground and said thatbe couldn't breathe, then less pressure should have been applied. My big issue is that this was ruled a homicide twice. How was there no indictment?

 

[RamFan503]

The guy was being arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. It's just wrong. I don't know how any sane person could not indict him. It's pretty clear that the prosecutor did not want to take this to trial. I'd say the same thing about Ferguson.

I don't think this compares to Ferguson at all from what I've seen. If nothing else, we have pretty damn clear video evidence in the Garner case. But leaving the Ferguson case aside, this fucking pig (and yes - this cop is a pig) did this to a guy for allegedly selling untagged cigarettes - a guy who was clearly not resisting. And the Grand Jury and prosecutors don't push for a case? This is an insult to all citizens of this country and in no way should be looked past or forgotten.

 

[blackbart]

I'm not sure what law he broke when being approached. Many stories have been consistent that he had broken up a fight on the street and was asked if he was still selling illegal cigarettes, which he denied. I don't recall any cigarettes or evidence being found on his person. He did resist arrest but I'm sure that this isn't the first man to demonstrate frustration with an officer. The thing we can all Agree on is that he was not a threat and that once he was on that ground and said thatbe couldn't breathe, then less pressure should have been applied. My big issue is that this was ruled a homicide twice. How was there no indictment?

The homicide ruling by the coroner is telling but they also listed other factors that contributed to the death. I certainly would not want to be in that situation, I have had the displeasure of being choked myself, there should compassion for sure.

 

[RamzFanz]

I'm not sure what law he broke when being approached. Many stories have been consistent that he had broken up a fight on the street and was asked if he was still selling illegal cigarettes, which he denied. I don't recall any cigarettes or evidence being found on his person. He did resist arrest but I'm sure that this isn't the first man to demonstrate frustration with an officer. The thing we can all Agree on is that he was not a threat and that once he was on that ground and said thatbe couldn't breathe, then less pressure should have been applied. My big issue is that this was ruled a homicide twice. How was there no indictment?

This is a case where I would understand protests and rioting. I wouldn't agree with the rioting, but I could understand it.

 

[jrry32]

NYC - Watch the video, the guy is belligerent and ready to put up a fight from the beginning. He was breaking the law first mistake. Don't put yourself in that situation and you don't have any of this fallout. He was being arrested, turn around and let them take you in to custody. No he wants to argue and put the police in a bad situation(guys just trying to do their job, they did not want to have to put themselves in danger to take this big dude down).

Ferguson, Excessive force is BS Brown was attacking a police officer, dipshit and criminal . All Brown had to do was get out of the street and keep moving.

Both of these incidents were instigated by the guys who made bad decisions and paid the ultimate price. They are not martyrs they are criminals.

Yea, that doesn't work for me. Like any ordinary citizen, police officers have to abide by the law. And there are restrictions on the force they can use...just like there are restrictions on the force a citizen can use in self-defense.

I don't care if the guy was belligerent, I don't care if the guy broke the law...he didn't deserve to die. The police officer deserves to be indicted for the CRIME he committed. Any ordinary citizen would be indicted if they tried to make a citizen's arrest in that manner. What he did was not legal, not ethical, and not acceptable.

Like it or not, Garner was an American and is protected by the laws those officers are sworn to uphold. That officer broke the law.

Excessive force really isn't BS for Brown. He was unarmed and the officer shot him when he could have retreated safely or used non-lethal force. He killed a man.

Both of these incidents were examples of excessive force and abuse of power. Those men don't have to be martyrs to be wrongly killed. The police should be held accountable but it's clear these prosecutors don't care about doing that. Criminals are still American citizens and don't deserve to be killed by overzealous police officers using excessive force.

You can choose to justify and dismiss these deaths because they were criminals but I happen to believe criminals are people and I'm not going to accept the killing of people without proper justification. Ferguson is a more iffy issue than New York...where it seems blatantly obvious that was an abuse of power.

 

[Ram_Rally]

The homicide ruling by the coroner is telling but they also listed other factors that contributed to the death. I certainly would not want to be in that situation, I have had the displeasure of being choked myself, there should compassion for sure.

It's just an unfortunate situation for all involved. I take pride in being a very logical individual and never letting feelings trump rationale. But this all of these events the last two weeks have only made me question everything I thought I knew about being an American (for reasons on both sides of this tricky fence)

 

[RamFan503]

While I agree there is a problem I disagree the Garner was not being belligerent. I watched the video twice and saw a very large agitated guy yelling and gesturing that left now doubt that he was mad.

He was breaking the law, is there any doubt about that? Did he not know he was breaking the law? (I'm speculating that he did know that).

I did not hear if the officers asked him to give himself up. That is my only question about whether or not the use of force was needed. If they asked him to surrender and he did not he forced the confrontation to the next level. Bad idea.

He was originally being questioned about a fight he had been involved in. From all accounts I have read, he was only involved in that he was breaking up the fight. He apparently did this several times before and was known for stopping violence in his neighborhood. Then it got onto whether he was back to selling untaxed cigarettes - which he denied. Supposedly the cops wanted to strap his hands while they questioned him. WTF? Who wouldn't tell them not to touch him? The only thing I saw him do in the video was try to pull his hands away from the cops that were grabbing at him.

Look - I agree that there is too much want by some within special interest groups to divide and segregate. But this was not one of those cases. I don't know if the cop did it because Garner was black. I only know that the cop at MINIMUM committed man slaughter and should at MINIMUM be prosecuted to determine if he should pay for his crime. Go ahead and get in a normal fight and choke someone to death. You think you are not going to get tried? A bouncer or security guard chokes someone out. Is he going to go without trial?

No indictment to sort out the facts? Really? It almost is like someone wanted rioting in the streets.

 

[Ram_Rally]

This is a case where I would understand protests and rioting. I wouldn't agree with the rioting, but I could understand it.

I'm never a fan of rioting. It allows people to assume the worst about you. Im definitely more a fan of Gandhi and king jr than Malcolm x lol