Raheem Morris discussion thread

[dieterbrock]

hahaha you got it. Shit the bed for the vast majority of the game and they did their job If you have 8 drives to finish the game and put 7 points on the board and turn the ball over twice that's as far as you can get from doing your job. Sorry it's not a different topic both sides of the ball failed to win the game. This thought that 7 points in the last 40+ minutes of the game is enough to win is well if it was anybody other than you I'd use words that the mods don't like but you're my guy and I won't use those words. Even McVay says they didn't do enough to win the game. They made some plays but it wasn't enough.

I see, you're moving the goal posts here. I am not making a debate that the offense played well, or that they played "better" than the defense. I'm not having that discussion, because I dont think either side played well, despite each side playing great at times. The point is simple, whatever led up to the Rams having the ball, and the 7 point lead and the 49ers timeout sitch, is basically irrelevant. The offense did exactly what it needed to do.
On topic, your McVay line is dishonest. He has vehemently defended his position and said he'd do it all over again. And I sure hope he means it. Well, if its against Rodgers in that sitch, or Brady and his ref support? Different Story and still worth a debate. But fear of Jimmy Flippin Garoppolo? Hell no...
Winning football says,
-Dont turn the ball over
-Dont stop the clock
-Make San Fran burn their time outs
-What killed the Rams in the 2nd half was the 49ers run game. You give them 30 more seconds and a time out? Now the run game still has to be accounted for
-It is the aggressive play, up to that point the Rams had pretty much bottled up JG, and now they could pin their ears back and end it.

I get it though, some folks make their opinions after the results and cant see it. That's cool.
McVay would be crucified had Stafford got sacked, picked, threw incomplete, had a pass dropped etc. And rightly so.

 

[Ellard80]

OK now that's funny, he was so aggressive trying to win the game he gave three half assed run plays up the middle and punted.

why is it funny? It's what he said in a presser earlier this week - that he would do it differently (IE go for the 1st down)

Its still comedy though because I could probably give you about 30 super bowl winning coaches who would have played it the same way.

 

[Ellard80]

I see, you're moving the goal posts here. I am not making a debate that the offense played well, or that they played "better" than the defense. I'm not having that discussion, because I dont think either side played well, despite each side playing great at times. The point is simple, whatever led up to the Rams having the ball, and the 7 point lead and the 49ers timeout sitch, is basically irrelevant. The offense did exactly what it needed to do.
On topic, your McVay line is dishonest. He has vehemently defended his position and said he'd do it all over again. And I sure hope he means it. Well, if its against Rodgers in that sitch, or Brady and his ref support? Different Story and still worth a debate. But fear of Jimmy Flippin Garoppolo? Hell no...
Winning football says,
-Dont turn the ball over
-Dont stop the clock
-Make San Fran burn their time outs
-What killed the Rams in the 2nd half was the 49ers run game. You give them 30 more seconds and a time out? Now the run game still has to be accounted for
-It is the aggressive play, up to that point the Rams had pretty much bottled up JG, and now they could pin their ears back and end it.

I get it though, some folks make their opinions after the results and cant see it. That's cool.
McVay would be crucified had Stafford got sacked, picked, threw incomplete, had a pass dropped etc. And rightly so.

he actually earlier in the week said he would have done it differently - IE go for the 1st down.

Jourdan tweeted it.

 

[Ellard80]

Looks like the Rams had about a 40% chance to win there in OT when they got the ball back. Shame the offense couldn't do it.

everyone is focused on the run plays at the end of the game.

I thought the mistake was not trying to get a FG at the end of regulation - when we just sat on the ball with 16 secs left.

That was the shit move to me.

 

[Ellard80]

I see, you're moving the goal posts here. I am not making a debate that the offense played well, or that they played "better" than the defense. I'm not having that discussion, because I dont think either side played well, despite each side playing great at times. The point is simple, whatever led up to the Rams having the ball, and the 7 point lead and the 49ers timeout sitch, is basically irrelevant. The offense did exactly what it needed to do.
On topic, your McVay line is dishonest. He has vehemently defended his position and said he'd do it all over again. And I sure hope he means it. Well, if its against Rodgers in that sitch, or Brady and his ref support? Different Story and still worth a debate. But fear of Jimmy Flippin Garoppolo? Hell no...
Winning football says,
-Dont turn the ball over
-Dont stop the clock
-Make San Fran burn their time outs
-What killed the Rams in the 2nd half was the 49ers run game. You give them 30 more seconds and a time out? Now the run game still has to be accounted for
-It is the aggressive play, up to that point the Rams had pretty much bottled up JG, and now they could pin their ears back and end it.

I get it though, some folks make their opinions after the results and cant see it. That's cool.
McVay would be crucified had Stafford got sacked, picked, threw incomplete, had a pass dropped etc. And rightly so.

yeah if stafford got sacked and fumbled - o boy lol... the "know better than McVay" crowd would have crashed the site.

Did people miss the fact the their d-line was blowing up our 0line most of the game?

It's also funny how this board has 10000 posts about people bitching and moaning about mcvay not running the ball... he stuck to it this game even though it hardly worked - and when he runs the ball at the end of the game - of course a bunch of angry posters and 5 threads about it.

 

[Kupped]

The idea isn't that Morris is being straight up defiant. I just think that because of his background when he draws up a new play or is crunch time and he's calling a game, he reverts back to his comfort zone. I also find it incongruous that you say McVay wants people that will challenge him and that Morris is doing exactly what McVay wants. Is he challenging McVay's preferences and assumptions or is he doing exactly what McVay tells him to do with the defense

I don't think snap counts dictate who your number 2 CB is. Lots of things can affect snap counts. I vaguely remember Hill over Williams late, but not enough to argue about anything in particular (injury or whatever else may be). The reality is, for most of the year Hill was 3rd behind Ramsey and Williams. You can try to spin master whatever you want, but that's what it was. We all knew it then, we all know it now.

I don't think Morris deserved to be fired mid-season. I wasn't happy with him and it would have been nice to have an instant upgrade, but that's not possible. My point was even if he was so bad, McVay can't fire the guy mid-season. I didn't think Morris would actually change and get better, so I expected him to be fired (promoted away from calling defense, whatever it looked like) after the season, but he did and here we are. His tendencies occasionally bites us in the butt. His MAD play stuff occasionally bites us in the butt (Ramsey jumping a route to try for an interception...). But for the most part he's doing much much better recently. I think we can ride him into next year and expect marginal improvement assuming they plug some roster holes. I'm not sure they can given the cap, but maybe.

We'll see.

I don't think it's incongruous (I like the word!) because the "challenge" aspect isn't, as you pointed out, defiance. If he's challenging McVay's ideas, then they're talking about it. If they're talking about it, they're discussing the plan and coming to an agreement. I'm not saying Morris is his pawn, but I don't believe Morris is autonomous to do as he wishes on D and he was brought in to work with what was in place.

Well, there's not much I can do about the snap count thing and the perception thing with Hill. Hill had 30 more tackles last year and one less Int. He also had significantly more targets. Troy Hill also performed at about the same level for the last two years for the Rams. I'm not "spinning" anything. Hill played the star role a ton of the time and then started over Hill on the outside a couple of games late in the season. Hill's versatility is absolutely something that Long, Williams and DD do not have.

The Defense was improving, significantly. Then Jones went down and the easy target was back on the field. Then in the last drive on Sunday there was no Fuller, Rapp was playing with a concussion and Williams had a hurt shoulder.

Blaming Morris for Ramsey trying to jump a route is kind of the essence of a lot of the criticism I see here. We blame Morris for the bad, but don't give him credit for the good.

With Jones in his second year.. the defensive front returning (Von would be my priority ahead of OBJ, Williams, Corbett and SJD).. the Secondary is what needs to see major growth. Fingers crossed Rochell takes a second year leap and they can bring in an upgrade at safety and 3rd and 4th corner. They need it.

 

[Kupped]

yeah if stafford got sacked and fumbled - o boy lol... the "know better than McVay" crowd would have crashed the site.

Did people miss the fact the their d-line was blowing up our 0line most of the game?

It's also funny how this board has 10000 posts about people bitching and moaning about mcvay not running the ball... he stuck to it this game even though it hardly worked - and when he runs the ball at the end of the game - of course a bunch of angry posters and 5 threads about it.

The "run the ball" argument is and always has been about balance and keeping a defense honest. With the formations and the runs the Rams did in that last possession, they weren't accomplishing either.

If they went empty and dropped deep straight back? Yep.. we'd be criticizing. Play action? Roll out? I would be just fine with whatever happend.

This board has a lot of posters who look at the nuances of the game, you included.

Yep, the defense failed at the end of the game. And McVay failed multiple times with key decisions. Going empty on 3rd and 1 at the end of the first half? Ridiculous. Turtling at the end of regulation when your starting safety, and the only decent safety you have in coverage, and the safety who calls your defense is hurt seems ill advised.. they just made a huge stop and had been struggling all second half.

The argument about McVay is mostly, imo, about situational decision making.

 

[Kupped]

here it is... 49ners had a less than 1% chance of winning after they punted at the end.

0.4 % chance when they punted it away.

49ers had less than 1 percent chance of beating Rams after late punt

The #49ers punted late and had less than a 1% chance of beating the Rams. But there was always a chance.

ninerswire.usatoday.com

It would've been zero if the offense had gotten a first down.

 

[1maGoh]

I don't think it's incongruous (I like the word!) because the "challenge" aspect isn't, as you pointed out, defiance. If he's challenging McVay's ideas, then they're talking about it. If they're talking about it, they're discussing the plan and coming to an agreement. I'm not saying Morris is his pawn, but I don't believe Morris is autonomous to do as he wishes on D and he was brought in to work with what was in place.

Well, there's not much I can do about the snap count thing and the perception thing with Hill. Hill had 30 more tackles last year and one less Int. He also had significantly more targets. Troy Hill also performed at about the same level for the last two years for the Rams. I'm not "spinning" anything. Hill played the star role a ton of the time and then started over Hill on the outside a couple of games late in the season. Hill's versatility is absolutely something that Long, Williams and DD do not have.

The Defense was improving, significantly. Then Jones went down and the easy target was back on the field. Then in the last drive on Sunday there was no Fuller, Rapp was playing with a concussion and Williams had a hurt shoulder.

Blaming Morris for Ramsey trying to jump a route is kind of the essence of a lot of the criticism I see here. We blame Morris for the bad, but don't give him credit for the good.

With Jones in his second year.. the defensive front returning (Von would be my priority ahead of OBJ, Williams, Corbett and SJD).. the Secondary is what needs to see major growth. Fingers crossed Rochell takes a second year leap and they can bring in an upgrade at safety and 3rd and 4th corner. They need it.

Oh I'm not blaming him for it. It just fits something he preaches. If he wants to hang his hat on MAD plays as a key to success he has to own when it fails too. Ramsey jumped the route. Ramsey's choice. But that's something Morris encourages, so it's not like Randy is going rogue. He's doing what Morris is asking. Ramsey is at fault for failing while executing exactly what Morris asked.

If it worked, you can bet Morris would be out there in the press conference talking about his MAD play philosophy and how the team got it done. It failed so he has to take a leader's share of the blame for it. But Ramsey is the one who did it, so he's the one who is at fault.

 

[Kupped]

Oh I'm not blaming him for it. It just fits something he preaches. If he wants to hang his hat on MAD plays as a key to success he has to own when it fails too. Ramsey jumped the route. Ramsey's choice. But that's something Morris encourages, so it's not like Randy is going rogue. He's doing what Morris is asking. Ramsey is at fault for failing while executing exactly what Morris asked.

If it worked, you can bet Morris would be out there in the press conference talking about his MAD play philosophy and how the team got it done. It failed so he has to take a leader's share of the blame for it. But Ramsey is the one who did it, so he's the one who is at fault.

I'll just say I disagree on that.

Ramsey fucked up and knew it and scrambled to recover. I understand what you're saying about mindset, but we know that Ramsey's always played like that, willing to drift if he thinks he can make a play... it's part of what makes him a superstar. Worked against him right there, though.

 

[1maGoh]

I'll just say I disagree on that.

Ramsey fucked up and knew it and scrambled to recover. I understand what you're saying about mindset, but we know that Ramsey's always played like that, willing to drift if he thinks he can make a play... it's part of what makes him a superstar. Worked against him right there, though.

Damn. I didn't realize you were that dedicated to ensuring he remained blameless. This really is as lost cause with you.

 

[oldnotdead]

Please Please someone hire him as a HC.

 

[Kupped]

Damn. I didn't realize you were that dedicated to ensuring he remained blameless. This really is as lost cause with you.

I don't want to be labeled intrasigent.. I'm not. Your point about basic approach and priority of getting turnovers is accurate and fair. But I do think situation needs to be considered and I hope you'd agree that in that scenario, playing for the int was just the wrong choice on the field. You're up by a TD.. you only have to hold them to a FG.

I went back and looked at the play again.

I honestly don't know what his responsibilities were on that play, but he was in zone, looking at the QB and thought he was going to jump a pass for Kittle for an INT.

I don't know if he thought Scott was supposed to be rotation over. I don't know if Ramsey was supposed to pattern match and carry with Deebo... I just don't know.

But he definitely wasn't in man coverage on Deebo..

 

[1maGoh]

I don't want to be labeled intrasigent.. I'm not. Your point about basic approach and priority of getting turnovers is accurate and fair. But I do think situation needs to be considered and I hope you'd agree that in that scenario, playing for the int was just the wrong choice on the field. You're up by a TD.. you only have to hold them to a FG.

I went back and looked at the play again.

I honestly don't know what his responsibilities were on that play, but he was in zone, looking at the QB and thought he was going to jump a pass for Kittle for an INT.

I don't know if he thought Scott was supposed to be rotation over. I don't know if Ramsey was supposed to pattern match and carry with Deebo... I just don't know.

But he definitely wasn't in man coverage on Deebo..

My dad will laugh when he reads this, but I had to look that one up. And bro, when I looked up intransigent your picture was there. Obviously, not really but the description fit.

I said Morris bears a leader's portion of the blame for it. Every leader bears some level of blame for their people's actions. Morris is responsible for the play of the defense, every second of every down. If they fail he failed (same thing with McVay, to be clear, for all the phases). The players job is to succeed. Morris'job is to ensure the players succeed. If a player can't succeed, his job is to get that player replaced by someone who can (by lobbying with upper management). If he can't get success, McVay's job is to get someone who can. If McVay can't do that, Snead's job is to find someone who can. If Snead can't, Demoff's job is to find someone who can. If Demoff can't... See the pattern? Morris bears a leader's share of the blame for Ramsey's decision. That's especially true given his MAD play philosophy, because he directly and openly encourages plays like that. Ramsey would probably do it anyway, but Morris can't even say that Ramsey went off script. The script says to try for MAD plays. Morris bears a leader's responsibility for the actions of his people, especially when those people are doing exactly what he taught and told them to do.

But according to you Morris is blameless in this as he is in all things. He's never made a mistake all season. We know you think that because it doesn't matter what situation or play anyone ever brings up, you always defend Morris and say he didn't do anything wrong. Every single time. I know you're already getting into it with somebody else about telling you what you think, but it's pretty obvious how you feel about it. There's not a single play or decision anyone has posted where you have agreed that Morris made a mistake. I'm pretty sure I even asked you to supply one single thing you think Morris did wrong from anywhere on the entire season. So far, you've not blamed him for anything. It's either the players or McVay according to you.

Intransigent is the perfect word.

 

[Kupped]

My dad will laugh when he reads this, but I had to look that one up. And bro, when I looked up intransigent your picture was there. Obviously, not really but the description fit.

I said Morris bears a leader's portion of the blame for it. Every leader bears some level of blame for their people's actions. Morris is responsible for the play of the defense, every second of every down. If they fail he failed (same thing with McVay, to be clear, for all the phases). The players job is to succeed. Morris'job is to ensure the players succeed. If a player can't succeed, his job is to get that player replaced by someone who can (by lobbying with upper management). If he can't get success, McVay's job is to get someone who can. If McVay can't do that, Snead's job is to find someone who can. If Snead can't, Demoff's job is to find someone who can. If Demoff can't... See the pattern? Morris bears a leader's share of the blame for Ramsey's decision. That's especially true given his MAD play philosophy, because he directly and openly encourages plays like that. Ramsey would probably do it anyway, but Morris can't even say that Ramsey went off script. The script says to try for MAD plays. Morris bears a leader's responsibility for the actions of his people, especially when those people are doing exactly what he taught and told them to do.

But according to you Morris is blameless in this as he is in all things. He's never made a mistake all season. We know you think that because it doesn't matter what situation or play anyone ever brings up, you always defend Morris and say he didn't do anything wrong. Every single time. I know you're already getting into it with somebody else about telling you what you think, but it's pretty obvious how you feel about it. There's not a single play or decision anyone has posted where you have agreed that Morris made a mistake. I'm pretty sure I even asked you to supply one single thing you think Morris did wrong from anywhere on the entire season. So far, you've not blamed him for anything. It's either the players or McVay according to you.

Intransigent is the perfect word.

"Your point about basic approach and priority of getting turnovers is accurate and fair."

What the fuck did you think I meant when I wrote that?

Lol

Maybe if you weren't in such a fucking hurry to respond you would've got it, but... naaaaaaaaahhhhhh

Anyway, good talk.

 

[1maGoh]

"Your point about basic approach and priority of getting turnovers is accurate and fair."

What the fuck did you think I meant when I wrote that?

Lol

Maybe if you weren't in such a fucking hurry to respond you would've got it, but... naaaaaaaaahhhhhh

Anyway, good talk.

I mean, there was a 10 hour difference from your post to mine. Not sure if "hurry" is the word I'd use. I know this reply is fast, but it's coincidence. I happen to still be here and saw your reply. I want to get an apology out quickly.

I'm sorry that I touched a nerve there. I want trying to get under your skin. I thought the situation was funny. That clearly didn't come across as well as I intended. You recognized the behavior and supplied the word. I agreed. Maybe too strongly. I'm sorry about that. I meant it a little funny and it clearly didn't come out that way.

What I assumed you meant the was basically nothing because you immediately followed it up with "But I do think..."

Using "but" and then immediately following up with paragraphs about how Ramsey acted on his own and was obviously in error (which he was) doesn't inspire confidence that you actually agreed. It seemed like you were providing just enough appearance of agreement to ignore my point and reassert your own. If that's not what you were trying to do (which it obviously wasn't), sorry about that. Misinterpreting intent and tone in text is fairly common, but I'll take my lumps. I assumed a less honest intent than I should have. My apologies.

My opinion on Morris has changed, due to a combination of this second half of the year and you. I appreciate your viewpoint and faith in him. I was wrong when I said he's not going to be able to coach a good enough defense for the team. He's adjusted, he's learning, things have improved, and I think my sanity/heartburn can withstand another season of him. I'll probably always have nitpicks, because I'm an uneducated (football-wise) fan who is strongly opinionated and he's not going to be perfect. All in all though, he's doing good enough right now. My only issue with the way you argue is, as I said, you've never admitted to him making even one small mistake. It makes it hard to take it seriously or assume it's in good faith. You've stated that he's not perfect and has made mistakes, but you never admit to what any of those might be. That's frustrating. I can't get you to give any ground and even when you think you are, your immediately following up with "but" and a counter argument which invalidates your agreement. I can't tell my wife "You're pretty, but..." Or tell my boss, "You're not stupid, but..." (Although in the army I just straight up told my platoon sergeant he was stupid; did not go well).

Again, sorry for the miscommunication. I'll take responsibility for that. Have a good night.

 

[Tano]

I don't want to be labeled intrasigent.. I'm not. Your point about basic approach and priority of getting turnovers is accurate and fair. But I do think situation needs to be considered and I hope you'd agree that in that scenario, playing for the int was just the wrong choice on the field. You're up by a TD.. you only have to hold them to a FG.

I went back and looked at the play again.

I honestly don't know what his responsibilities were on that play, but he was in zone, looking at the QB and thought he was going to jump a pass for Kittle for an INT.

I don't know if he thought Scott was supposed to be rotation over. I don't know if Ramsey was supposed to pattern match and carry with Deebo... I just don't know.

But he definitely wasn't in man coverage on Deebo..

Okay I looked at this play in the All 22 and although I blame Ramsey a lot for this play ...

What the fuck was the safety doing on this play.

He sees Deebo going deep. No one else is in the vicinity. Decides to not cover the guy and then gets turned around on the play while trying to recover.

It is almost hilarious at how bad he played on this play.

He reminded me of Craig Dahl.

I can't see the number so I am not sure who it was whether it was Scott or Burgess.

Edit - it was Nick Scott 33

 

[kurtfaulk]

Okay I looked at this play in the All 22 and although I blame Ramsey a lot for this play ...

What the fuck was the safety doing on this play.

He sees Deebo going deep. No one else is in the vicinity. Decides to not cover the guy and then gets turned around on the play while trying to recover.

It is almost hilarious at how bad he played on this play.

He reminded me of Craig Dahl.

I can't see the number so I am not sure who it was whether it was Scott or Burgess.

Edit - it was Nick Scott 33

View attachment 51216

View attachment 51217

this is why morris needs to go. a competent coach would ensure that play was broken up. there was nothing tricky about it. it's an inexcusable mistake at that stage of the game.

.

 

[oldnotdead]

Tano, IMO all this proves is that he and others on the defense have shown throughout the season is that they are not ready to play. They haven't been coached up enough to see the play developing and not understand what they are seeing. That is all on Morris and his staff. Coaching matters. In the same way Staley took Phillips' defense and molded them into the #1 unit in the NFL in one season. Morris has taken that same unit and dropped them into the middle of the pack.

 

[FarNorth]

Tano, IMO all this proves is that he and others on the defense have shown throughout the season is that they are not ready to play. They haven't been coached up enough to see the play developing and not understand what they are seeing. That is all on Morris and his staff. Coaching matters. In the same way Staley took Phillips' defense and molded them into the #1 unit in the NFL in one season. Morris has taken that same unit and dropped them into the middle of the pack.

This is why they signed Eric Weddle.