Your Controversial Rams Takes

[AZRams]

 

[Giles]

If we had kupp in the 2018 sb we win.

 

[PARAM]

Well I'm the rookie here I guess (only a Rams fan for 54 years without interruption). If we hold Vermeil to a standard that if a guy "retires" as also being a quitter, I don't know if that is fair. Yes, he later realized he made a mistake by retiring too early after watching Martz move into his job and so he went to the Chefs. Is every retiree a quitter? I don't think that is a fair assessment.

We don't really know if McVay was going to quit or if it was a ploy for some benefit.

To make myself crystal clear, my two favorite Rams head coaches are Dick Vermeil and Sean McVay. Not because of the Championships. Because they are humble humans who care about the players outside of football. The Championships arrived because they were also good at coaching football. One of my favorite quotes from DV is "you surround yourself with good people and let them do their jobs".

On Vermeil retiring.....the first time he quit was because of "burnout". The stories are well known. Sleeping in his office. Working 20 hours a day. His leaving hurt the Eagles. 30 wins the next 5 years. But the guy is still doing Blue Cross/Blue Shield commercials locally. Every Eagle fan I know loves the guy.....and he lost the Superbowl!!!!! I believe McVay suffers from the same thing....a desire for perfection and/or the realization it doesn't exist. And it's got to wear on a person. But Vermeil quit again, on the Rams. Truthfully, I believed at the time he was forced out but that doesn't pass the smell test. I don't think anybody would have forced the guy out. They would have let Martz go and like Den said, Al Saunders would have done a fine job in place of MM. But call it what you want....retire, a sabatical, a respite.....it's resign, step aside, quit.

The oddity is he was successful coaching for 15 years over a 30 year span with an average record of 8-7.

 

[Loyal]

To make myself crystal clear, my two favorite Rams head coaches are Dick Vermeil and Sean McVay. Not because of the Championships. Because they are humble humans who care about the players outside of football. The Championships arrived because they were also good at coaching football. One of my favorite quotes from DV is "you surround yourself with good people and let them do their jobs".

On Vermeil retiring.....the first time he quit was because of "burnout". The stories are well known. Sleeping in his office. Working 20 hours a day. His leaving hurt the Eagles. 30 wins the next 5 years. But the guy is still doing Blue Cross/Blue Shield commercials locally. Every Eagle fan I know loves the guy.....and he lost the Superbowl!!!!! I believe McVay suffers from the same thing....a desire for perfection and/or the realization it doesn't exist. And it's got to wear on a person. But Vermeil quit again, on the Rams. Truthfully, I believed at the time he was forced out but that doesn't pass the smell test. I don't think anybody would have forced the guy out. They would have let Martz go and like Den said, Al Saunders would have done a fine job in place of MM. But call it what you want....retire, a sabatical, a respite.....it's resign, step aside, quit.

The oddity is he was successful coaching for 15 years over a 30 year span with an average record of 8-7.

By your definition, every person who retires is a quitter. As for Martz, they were worried about losing him and so Al Saunders wouldn't do. Vermeil was emotional, as always, and told the Rams of his plans to retire and the Rams machine edged forward and was unstoppable once moving to make Martz HC. That's my firm memory, but believe what you want.

 

[PARAM]

By your definition, every person who retires is a quitter. As for Martz, they were worried about losing him and so Al Saunders wouldn't do. Vermeil was emotional, as always, and told the Rams of his plans to retire and the Rams machine edged forward and was unstoppable once moving to make Martz HC. That's my firm memory, but believe what you want.

No, not every person. Some people retire and that's it. Retirement. But a guy who retires 3 times? That's a quitter.

Sure they were worried about losing Martz. Did they force Vermeil to retire? If they did, then that's the end of the story. If they didn't, then they would have had to do with Saunders if somebody hired Martz. Vermeil would have told them Saunders could do it. And he would have been right. You believe they forced Vermeil to retire? You believe what you want.

But one note. The Rams weren't unstoppable once Martz took over. They ended every year with a loss except the 7-9 season. That's called being stopped.

 

[Mackeyser]

To make myself crystal clear, my two favorite Rams head coaches are Dick Vermeil and Sean McVay. Not because of the Championships. Because they are humble humans who care about the players outside of football. The Championships arrived because they were also good at coaching football. One of my favorite quotes from DV is "you surround yourself with good people and let them do their jobs".

On Vermeil retiring.....the first time he quit was because of "burnout". The stories are well known. Sleeping in his office. Working 20 hours a day. His leaving hurt the Eagles. 30 wins the next 5 years. But the guy is still doing Blue Cross/Blue Shield commercials locally. Every Eagle fan I know loves the guy.....and he lost the Superbowl!!!!! I believe McVay suffers from the same thing....a desire for perfection and/or the realization it doesn't exist. And it's got to wear on a person. But Vermeil quit again, on the Rams. Truthfully, I believed at the time he was forced out but that doesn't pass the smell test. I don't think anybody would have forced the guy out. They would have let Martz go and like Den said, Al Saunders would have done a fine job in place of MM. But call it what you want....retire, a sabatical, a respite.....it's resign, step aside, quit.

The oddity is he was successful coaching for 15 years over a 30 year span with an average record of 8-7.

Here’s what happened. Martz was the hot young prospect and led an historic offense. He was going to become a head coach. So the FO and ownership signed Martz to a record deal for a OC with the understanding that Martz would succeed Vermeil.

That made Vermeil a lame duck HC who didn’t have the full authority of an HC (remember, for all the tears, he was a hard nosed disciplinarian… like an emotionally available Belichick). As well, Martz was an arrogant ass who Vermiel was clear would have pushed the boundaries and Vermeil wasn’t up for that. No HC wants to be in that space of not having the full support of ownership and having your replacement on staff isn’t a great place to be so Vermeil stepped back in what I saw as a necessary, unfortunate, and classy move to prevent any power struggle that he’d had no interest in fighting in the first place.

 

[PARAM]

Here’s what happened. Martz was the hot young prospect and led an historic offense. He was going to become a head coach. So the FO and ownership signed Martz to a record deal for a OC with the understanding that Martz would succeed Vermeil.

That made Vermeil a lame duck HC who didn’t have the full authority of an HC (remember, for all the tears, he was a hard nosed disciplinarian… like an emotionally available Belichick). As well, Martz was an arrogant ass who Vermiel was clear would have pushed the boundaries and Vermeil wasn’t up for that. No HC wants to be in that space of not having the full support of ownership and having your replacement on staff isn’t a great place to be so Vermeil stepped back in what I saw as a necessary, unfortunate, and classy move to prevent any power struggle that he’d had no interest in fighting in the first place.

So, he quit once and retired twice?

 

[FarNorth]

As to Haden the announcer I guess I never could get past his career with the Rams. I even met him once, when my son was touring Notre Dame, seemed very nice and took the time to introduce himself and I just couldn't get past the memories.

Never looked upon Vermeil that way, but you make good points. As to him leaving the Rams, IMO, I think he felt the time was right and after a couple months, he realized he made a mistake and it was too late. The choice of Greg Robinson as his DC doomed him in Kansas City, but when everyone thought if the Rams lost Martz the offense would be gone, but Al Saunders ran it nice in KC and with more running.

The St. Louis sportswriters, one in particular, led a campaign for Vermeil to retire so that the Rams could keep Martz who in theory might otherwise have left for a HC job. Although one of the worst ideas of all time, imo it actually had some effect.

Martz was ok only when under Vermeil's direct supervision. Otherwise crazed enough to run Warner out of town, nearly have Bulger killed, and lose playoff games by running out the clock for a tie instead of trying to win the damn game.

 

[FarNorth]

S

Well, it was back in the day, when fans were putting most, if not all, the blame on Mike Martz.

Some of us are still putting all the blame on Martz though he was a genius in play design. Of course, there was plenty more blame to go around for a decade or so after Martz left too.

 

[BriansRams]

Well, I was born in September of 1966 so you know my age, but I have been blessed with a great memory and thus is why I am a historian. Plus I love researching too so there is that. Growing up I was a jock too concerned of what I put in my body so weed was not an option, but my Uncle who was 4 years my senior did enough for both of us.

To this day I enjoy screwing with my Uncle because I remember friends of his, he has long forgotten. With the Rams it is just in my head plus I know where to go to ensure my information is accurate too.

#1 I was born September 1967 so hello.
#2 Can you even imagine if you forgot to type the word "with" above!!!

 

[tempests]

If the Rams don't win the Super Bowl in 1999, Vermeil probably comes back in 2000. Making Martz the HC in waiting was DV's idea. He wasn't intimidated by that prospect.

The man made an emotional decision. I don't think he left for any reason other than he convinced himself he was done coaching.

 

[LA_Rams_#29]

We're going to fight for a playoffs spot....THIS SEASON....... barring injuries, we have about the same team we had McVay's first season.

 

[Loyal]

No, not every person. Some people retire and that's it. Retirement. But a guy who retires 3 times? That's a quitter.

Sure they were worried about losing Martz. Did they force Vermeil to retire? If they did, then that's the end of the story. If they didn't, then they would have had to do with Saunders if somebody hired Martz. Vermeil would have told them Saunders could do it. And he would have been right. You believe they forced Vermeil to retire? You believe what you want.

But one note. The Rams weren't unstoppable once Martz took over. They ended every year with a loss except the 7-9 season. That's called being stopped.

Vermeil gave them an opening and the Rams took it. They forced Martz on Vermeil to increase offense before the 1999 season...an offer Vermeil couldn't refuse. .So when he mentioned retirement, they were patting him on the back while guiding him out the door.

Yeah, I know how it went down, buddy. We'll both just believe what the freak we want. I'm done talking about this.

 

[XXXIVwin]

This year is going to showcase quite a bit because if the Rams struggle again, I can't see McVay staying, in fact, I felt if they got off to a slow start, lets communicate 1-6, do we start hearing the stories again about being overwhelmed?

IMO no need to worry @Den because McVay is staying through 2024 no matter what.

Front office has made it abundantly clear that resources are being sacrificed in 2023 so we can go on a spending spree in 2024.

So I think the pressure is off McVay in 2023. In fact, I think those around him WANT him to put less pressure on himself in 2023. Screw the results, just enjoy the process. Just focus on coaching up the young guys.

So I think this year is in part a psychological experiment to see if McVay can rejuvenate his love for coaching. And then in 2024 and every year after that, McVay can be his usual obsessively results-oriented self. But in 2023, even if the Rams go 1-16, McVay will be itching to turn it around the following year.

Yes, McVay will be ultra-competitive in 2023. But I think he's going to try to dial it down to non-burnout level.

 

[ReekofRams]

The nose on the Ram reportedly moonlighting on Pornhub

 

[PARAM]

If the Rams don't win the Super Bowl in 1999, Vermeil probably comes back in 2000. Making Martz the HC in waiting was DV's idea. He wasn't intimidated by that prospect.

The man made an emotional decision. I don't think he left for any reason other than he convinced himself he was done coaching.

But that's not a compelling story. A SB Champion head coach being forced out is though. And if he "allowed" them to gracefully retire him, that's worse than a quitter, isn't it? Vermeil was a man who loved a challenge.

Imagine how history would have been changed had Vermeil stayed and Martz was hired somewhere else!!
Dallas hired Dave Campo in 2000. Green Bay, Mike Sherman. Miami, Dave Wannstadt (who was the HC in waiting to Jimmy Johnson). New Orleans hired Jim Haslet. The Jets hired Al Groh because the Patriots hired Bill Belichick. We all remember the Jets head coach stepping down after 1 day because Robert Kraft hired him. Perhaps the Jets hire Martz and he makes Vinny Testaverde a SB Champion? Or Kraft goes after Martz and Bledsoe wins it all, making Tom Brady some failed 6th round draft pick?

 

[CGI_Ram]

I believe if Brandin Cooks makes either one of those TD catches in SB 53, we’d be a dynasty in the making on a crazy alternate time path.

On the first missed opportunity, Goff’s throw was super late but I’m not sure Cooks was his first read. Cooks could have made a stronger play, stayed further left in the window and snatch the ball on a tough catch.

The 4th quarter drop with 4 min to go was in the basket and needs to be made.

Also like @Giles, if only we had Kupp.

Alternate time path…

I also believe Steven Jackson is one of the most underrated Rams.

 

[nighttrain]

The St. Louis sportswriters, one in particular, led a campaign for Vermeil to retire so that the Rams could keep Martz who in theory might otherwise have left for a HC job. Although one of the worst ideas of all time, imo it actually had some effect.

Martz was ok only when under Vermeil's direct supervision. Otherwise crazed enough to run Warner out of town, nearly have Bulger killed, and lose playoff games by running out the clock for a tie instead of trying to win the damn game.

Bernie and Martz, wow!

Martz was very good under Vermeil, but a train wreck as a head coach.
train

 

[Allen2McVay]

Martz was very good under Vermeil, but a train wreck as a head coach.
train

If Martz was such a ‘train wreck as a head coach’, why did he keep getting head coaching opportunities?
Oh, wait … never mind.

Seriously though, think of all the unsuccessful head coaches that got second chances. I think Martz had three playoff teams and won three postseason games (didn’t look it up) but never got another NFL head coaching job.

 

[nighttrain]

my thinking, after Warner, Martz thot his coaching could make almost any QB a starter, hence Mixon, who was a flop, and Martz's ego ruined his ability to be a Head Coach.
train