Reasons for WR at 19

[Londoner]

I have seen a few mock drafts where he drops past the Rams.

I haven’t seen one.

Verse and Latu? Yes. Turner? Always gone by the time we pick.

 

[WestCoastRam]

What was the confirmation the Rams wanted Kincaid. Think that Jake kid said it but Jourdan refuted it. It did seem like it was confirmed that they tried to move up. But I don't think the player was ever confirmed.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

What was the confirmation the Rams wanted Kincaid. Think that Jake kid said it but Jourdan refuted it. It did seem like it was confirmed that they tried to move up. But I don't think the player was ever confirmed.

I never heard any confirmation on it either. My first thought was that it was for Skoronski. But I read on here that it was Kincaid. He fits with the versatile weapon concept.

 

[dieterbrock]

All this talk about Bowers and his blocking ability hasnt been mentioned. Kid is a beast, so along with being an offensive weapon, he'll be a terror on the blocking also.
He wont be there at 19

 

[Memphis Ram]

He's been H-back, slot, all that other stuff. The one difference may be FB. And in McVay's 11 personnel offense, or even 12 he uses a lead blocker once in a blue moon. Not enough to classify someone differently, IMO. If Rams ran lead blocking from I formation or power I, then it might be a "thing" but really SF, Tennesee and a few others are the ones that do it.

With McVay, it's not a thing.

At one point adding more beef on the interior line and power/gap running schemes wasn't a thing with McVay.

And he's never had anyone capable of doing it the same level as Bowers while also being capable of being useful enough to be a threat in other way.

Well, if we are getting in to personal views, that is something that cannot really be discussed ... sure, you could be right, but few agree that Braswell > Turner.

So, really, you are advancing a strong opinion that is out of the box --- which is what I sensed. I don't know personally, but Turner is as highly rated as Bowers according to most accounts... the ones I read. And that was what I was using as a basis. I don't know what Rams thing but draftkicks like Kiper, Cosell and all those guys have Turner and Bowers top 5-15-ish ...

So, I go by them and it was that basis that tells me if the talent is equal then go with the 3-4 edge both in general and for Rams specifically this year.

Really what you are saying is you like Bowers more than Turner ... that's fine. Nothing wrong with being in the minority. But all of this discussion comes down to your opinion versus everyone else
1. That Bowers is somehow more valuable that others think
2. Biowers' talent is far greater than Turner

I simply have a difference of opinion on those two points.

Actual players have to be discussed as teams draft players and not positions. And while players can fit within a range, it's still possible for there to be a hierarchy within that range.

Depending upon who you read there are those that like Verse and a medically cleared Latu more than Turner, too.

Braswell? He's thicker, has more thump, and IMO does a better job at setting the EDGE vs. the run (which is often completely ignored when discussing the position). A first round EDGE should be able to handle an OT and routinely destroy most TEs vs. the run. Otherwise, what you may have is a situational pass rusher. And if that's what one wants EDGE Yannick Ngakoue is only 29 and is still a free agent if I'm not mistaken.

Sure, Turner can improve, by my concerns are how much more can he bulk up than he already has the past few seasons.

 

[WestCoastRam]

I never heard any confirmation on it either. My first thought was that it was for Skoronski. But I read on here that it was Kincaid. He fits with the versatile weapon concept.

I was pretty sure Jourdan said they were looking to trade up for D but it was so long ago I don't know anymore.

 

[WestCoastRam]

FWIW, I think Bowers is pretty damn good. But I don't want to spend capital trading up for him.

That being said, anyone suggesting he can play X more than a play or two a game - yeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

That's some goggles.

 

[JimY53]

At one point adding more beef on the interior line and power/gap running schemes wasn't a thing with McVay.

But teams run gap-blocking in the NFL. They are not using FBs. This is really, just you projecting things with no data that says Rams are wanting to go with this kind of guy. I mean if you have some information that Rams want to use a lead blocker, I'd be happy to discuss. But they went gap scheme last year and never sued a lead blocker -- like he did Skow -- at all. Gap blocking does not mean using a fullback consistently.

And he's never had anyone capable of doing it the same level as Bowers while also being capable of being useful enough to be a threat in other way.

I think you are far from overrating Bowers' blocking ability, especially as a lead blocker. Just being able to do something once in a while does not mean he an do it at a high level, in the NFL. I think it's just you projecting things a bit too far. DOing something once in a while as a gimmick (Skow as a FB) is not a reason to

Again, nothing against this kid, but i am not buying that he is all THAT special. You are obviously high on him. I am just going t wait and see because I have seen people hyped before and they don't turn out to be great.

Actual players have to be discussed as teams draft players and not positions. And while players can fit within a range, it's still possible for there to be a hierarchy within that range.

Depending upon who you read there are those that like Verse and a medically cleared Latu more than Turner, too.

Braswell? He's thicker, has more thump, and IMO does a better job at setting the EDGE vs. the run (which is often completely ignored when discussing the position). A first round EDGE should be able to handle an OT and routinely destroy most TEs vs. the run. Otherwise, what you may have is a situational pass rusher. And if that's what one wants EDGE Yannick Ngakoue is only 29 and is still a free agent if I'm not mistaken.

Sure, Turner can improve, by my concerns are how much more can he bulk up than he already has the past few seasons.

Well, I don't know the answer to those things. All I know is I have been looking into the edges and DTs.

Not sure what the Nggakou thing has to do with anything. Not following. He was a 3rd round pick, not a first-rounder. He was not considered at the top of his draft class. Further, for a 3rd rounder he had good production. Not sure what his lack of having a job now has to do with anything he did prior.

I think we are discussing draft --- not free agents. If you are questioning the reports on him at the time --- and I don;t remember what they were, but I think they were probably fine with spending a 3rd round pick on a guy who had 37.5 scsk and 14 FF in four years.

If Rams took Turner in the 1st round and he had 37.5 sacks and 14 FF in the next 4 years I would be happy. Maybe I am missing your point.

it boils down to what I said --- you like Bowers better than Turner. Fine. People who do this for a living think they are about the same. So you who argument is that you think Bowers > Turner.

You've agreed that if two guys, a TE-FB-HB, etc and an edge are evenly rated you'd go wit the edge. But now you are just saying you don't think they are. Well, I cannot go by your evaluations ... most of them think Turner is better than Braswell, for example.

Maybe you are right, Maybe you are wrong.

But I am not going to change my opinion that edge is a more valuable position. I have never said Bowers is not a good player, I think he's probably rated, generally, where he should be. I am just not going to give him some special status that he is a Juicecheck-Kelce-Cooper Kupp rolled into one. Not buying that so, to me, he's not worth the risk of being Ebrom or Pitts, other guys hyped to the max.

As far as what and edge does, I am pretty sure that people evaluating Turner (Latu, etc) are taking into account what the job of and edge is when they are grading these guys. When you say they have to "A first round EDGE should be able to handle an OT and routinely destroy most TEs vs. the run" that is baked into their cake.

Again, it them thinking one thing and you thinking another. As I said that's fine ... but it's their track records I can look at and verify and over the years I have seen booms and busts and also guys who player right about how they have been evaluated.

This is a case that you are in love with a guy --- and that's fine. Just does not mean others have to be to the same level.

 

[JimY53]

I don;t know who is right---I don;t know the future and I don't evaluate these draft guys myself, I only follow it. I spend to much time watching things that matter, like what is happening on a-22 and things --- other people have different interests like the draft, I don't because it's always the same --- guys being called this and that and they fail. Guys who no one thought of doing well and everything in between

But when it comes to Bowers he's a great prospect -- almost all positive ... but they are also saying positive things about others.


Scouting Report
Strengths

Excellent receiving weapon
Elite speed, athleticism, strength, and playmaking ability
Lined up all over for Georgia (in-line, slot, wing, split out wide, and even at running back)
Explosive off-the-snap
Smooth route runner
Dangerous after the catch
Breaks tackles, has the speed to outrun defenders, and the strength to shed smaller DBs and linebackers
Great contact balance and runs through tackle attempts
Attacks the ball in the air, has great body control and is a reliable hand-catcher
Finds the soft spots in zone coverage and always finds a way to get open
Capable and willing run blocker
Play translates to the next level
High-upside player who could become one of the best tight ends in the league instantly
Weaknesses

A little undersized and may need to adjust to bigger and more physical players in the NFL
While a capable blocker, he may struggle against bigger, stronger, and faster defenders in the NFL but you’re not drafting him to block
Smaller catch radius than your prototypical NFL tight-end
Could struggle some with contested catches against NFL defenders
What other analysts are saying about Georgia tight end Brock Bowers

NFL Network’s lead draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah - Link

Bowers is an undersized tight end with elite speed, strength and playmaking ability. He lined up all over the field at Georgia — in-line, on the wing, split out and even at running back. He is very sudden in his release, and he uses his upper-body strength to chuck defenders when pressed at the line of scrimmage. He catches a lot of quick-hitters in the flat and he’s a maniac on screens. He attacks the ball in the air and is quick to transition up the field. He has the speed to pull away, but his greatest asset is his tackle-breaking power. He runs through contact without gearing down. He is an effective run blocker when he can get his hands on opponents, but he will get pressed out by longer-armed edge rushers. Overall, Bowers reminds me a lot of George Kittle, and I see him having a similar impact in the NFL.

NFL.com’s Lance Zierlein - Link

Prolific pass-catching tight end with a rare blend of acceleration, speed, body control and hands that could breathe new life into a stale NFL offense. Bowers was a high-volume target at Georgia and led the team in receiving yards in all three of his college seasons. He plays with relentless pacing as a route runner, allowing him to beat man coverage. Also, he’s highly effective at exploiting zone pockets for first downs and chunk plays. Bowers’ secret sauce might be his ability to rip through tacklers and pile on yardage after the catch. He’ll be an adequate move blocker and give effort at the point of attack, but that is the one area where his game falls short of George Kittle’s, for comparison purposes. Bowers is an explosive athlete but lacks the premium measurables typically associated with early first-rounders. It might take a year for him to acclimate to defenders who are bigger, faster and longer, but he appears destined to become a highly productive NFL player with Pro Bowl upside.

Strengths:
Very fast
Extremely rare speed and athleticism
Supreme receiving tight end
Mismatch nightmare
Extremely athletic
Generally sure-handed
Quick release off the line
Superb body control
Great catch radius
Leaping ability
Good route-running
Improved blocker
Phenomenal middle-seam tight end
Too fast for linebackers
Too big for safeties
Red-zone weapon
Three-down tight end
Very versatile
Athletic enough to play H-back
Upside


Weaknesses:
Could stand to improve his run blocking
A little light in weight
Will drop a pass now and then


Summary: Dangerous pass-receiving tight ends have become a rage in the NFL, and Bowers is the top tight end prospect to enter the pros in a long time. With his size, athleticism and speed, he looks like a matchup nightmare for an NFL offense.

 

[Memphis Ram]

But teams run gap-blocking in the NFL. They are not using FBs. This is really, just you projecting things with no data that says Rams are wanting to go with this kind of guy. I mean if you have some information that Rams want to use a lead blocker, I'd be happy to discuss. But they went gap scheme last year and never sued a lead blocker -- like he did Skow -- at all. Gap blocking does not mean using a fullback consistently.

C'mon now. You pointed out that something wasn't a thing for McVay. I merely gave an example of something that wasn't a thing for McVay but is now. Sure, the Rams ran some gap in the past, but it wasn't nearly the focus it is now. The only point was that McVay isn't in the box you seem to have him in and can change things up if he had the personnel to do so.

BTW, as I'm sure you know, the FB doesn't have to be a lead blocker. He can threaten such and become a receiving target like most West Coast Offense FBs have in the past.

I think you are far from overrating Bowers' blocking ability, especially as a lead blocker. Just being able to do something once in a while does not mean he an do it at a high level, in the NFL. I think it's just you projecting things a bit too far. DOing something once in a while as a gimmick (Skow as a FB) is not a reason to

Again, nothing against this kid, but i am not buying that he is all THAT special. You are obviously high on him. I am just going t wait and see because I have seen people hyped before and they don't turn out to be great.

He doesn't even have to do it at a high level in the NFL. Just be good enough like most West Coast Offense FB have for years. Plus, I'm not saying it would be a full time position. Just another option in his package of plays especially via pre-snap motion.

Well, I don't know the answer to those things. All I know is I have been looking into the edges and DTs.

Not sure what the Nggakou thing has to do with anything. Not following. He was a 3rd round pick, not a first-rounder. He was not considered at the top of his draft class. Further, for a 3rd rounder he had good production. Not sure what his lack of having a job now has to do with anything he did prior.

I think we are discussing draft --- not free agents. If you are questioning the reports on him at the time --- and I don;t remember what they were, but I think they were probably fine with spending a 3rd round pick on a guy who had 37.5 scsk and 14 FF in four years.

If Rams took Turner in the 1st round and he had 37.5 sacks and 14 FF in the next 4 years I would be happy. Maybe I am missing your point.

Point missed completely. The point was that if an EDGE rusher could can rush the passer, but struggles setting the EDGE vs. the run he's not an elite EDGE, but just a situational pass rusher like Ngakoue who could be had as a free agent now without using a 1st round choice.

it boils down to what I said --- you like Bowers better than Turner. Fine. People who do this for a living think they are about the same. So you who argument is that you think Bowers > Turner.

You've agreed that if two guys, a TE-FB-HB, etc and an edge are evenly rated you'd go wit the edge. But now you are just saying you don't think they are. Well, I cannot go by your evaluations ... most of them think Turner is better than Braswell, for example.

Maybe you are right, Maybe you are wrong.

But I am not going to change my opinion that edge is a more valuable position. I have never said Bowers is not a good player, I think he's probably rated, generally, where he should be. I am just not going to give him some special status that he is a Juicecheck-Kelce-Cooper Kupp rolled into one. Not buying that so, to me, he's not worth the risk of being Ebrom or Pitts, other guys hyped to the max.

As far as what and edge does, I am pretty sure that people evaluating Turner (Latu, etc) are taking into account what the job of and edge is when they are grading these guys. When you say they have to "A first round EDGE should be able to handle an OT and routinely destroy most TEs vs. the run" that is baked into their cake.

Again, it them thinking one thing and you thinking another. As I said that's fine ... but it's their track records I can look at and verify and over the years I have seen booms and busts and also guys who player right about how they have been evaluated.

This is a case that you are in love with a guy --- and that's fine. Just does not mean others have to be to the same level.

You say draftnik media who do this for living think Bowers and Turner are about the same and I disagree. Some might, but I question this for others.

Besides, there can be a hierarchy in the ranges and there's a difference between player rankings and where players are expected to be selected. Kiper hollers this every year pointing out the difference between his big board (player rankings) and a mock draft.

The same draftnik media that will tell you that Bowers is the best TE to come out in years and potentially a generational talent will also tell you how this EDGE class doesn't compare to some of the other highly rated EDGE rushers that have come out over the years. If they did they would be projected to be drafted much higher than they have been thus far simply due to the premium need at the position around the league. There's no chance in the world that 3 WRs in a deep WR draft class would be projected to go ahead of the first EDGE rusher.

I wish I could remember where I heard it, but years ago someone pointed out how a players pass rush potential/athleticism can skew player grades given the importance of rushing the passer. He made the point referring to high grades Bruce Irvin received despite off the field concerns and little to no interest in run defense. There no doubt in my mind that still happens today. If it didn't I find it hard to believe than anyone would have Turner ranked ahead of Verse.

Finally, I can't say that i care one bit if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm just giving an opinion and answering responses.

 

[JimY53]

C'mon now. You pointed out that something wasn't a thing for McVay. I merely gave an example of something that wasn't a thing for McVay but is now. Sure, the Rams ran some gap in the past, but it wasn't nearly the focus it is now. The only point was that McVay isn't in the box you seem to have him in and can change things up if he had the personnel to do so.

But there is quite a difference in going from more gap blocking to adding a fullback and lead plays. And the trend went from a few lead plays with Skow to almost none. So your projection, IMO, was not based on what they were doing. It just seemed to be because you say Bowers can lead block on an NFL level that McVay would then use that kind of play.

That's just too many "ifs". If McVay wanted to lead block, he'd lead block. Changing from OZ to duo and gap blocking did not mean more ISO stuff ... so you, IMO were reaching. If he wanted to do that he'd get a true lead blocker, not a tight end who, on occasion, lead blocked. Sorry, no sale, it's not how McVay works.

BTW, as I'm sure you know, the FB doesn't have to be a lead blocker. He can threaten such and become a receiving target like most West Coast Offense FBs have in the past.

I only bring it up because you brought it up. I don't think Rams use lead blocks no matter who the personnel. They block the way they block and what is consistent is how the WRs block from tight or "nasty" formations.

He doesn't even have to do it at a high level in the NFL. Just be good enough like most West Coast Offense FB have for years. Plus, I'm not saying it would be a full time position. Just another option in his package of plays especially via pre-snap motion.

But it's pure speculation based on what you think of him. And yes, teams that have a FB do it on a high level. and and "good enough". Juice is a great lead blocker.

And I understand you are not saying a full-time position -- trust me I get what you are saying. I am only replying to your comments. I don't think, even if Rams had him, that he'd lead block at all. I don't think he does it much in college. This is just a gimmick --- something he can do once in a while not as a main course.

Skow can PLAY FB, just does not mean he's good at it. Good enough to use 20 times in one season. So what if a TE can do that? Higs could have done it. Kelce *could* do it. Kittle *could* do it ... they put guards and tackles in on short yardage to di it on a rare occasion. No matter what, it's not enough to pick him over an edge if the talent were roughly equal. That's my view.

So Heidi Klum can cook? Great. But not a difference-maker.

I am refuting that he's Juice/Deebo/Kelce/Kupp all rolled into one. Sorry, that's not what he looks like to me. I am not trying to change your mind, just not buying it. I've seen a little football in my time and any team would be lucky if he's as good as Kittle or Kelce since the vast majority of the time he would be doing what they do.

I still think you just like the kid and are hyping him beyond being a good prospect as a move TE. All the rest? I don't buy based on what I see and what others say.

Point missed completely. The point was that if an EDGE rusher could can rush the passer, but struggles setting the EDGE vs. the run he's not an elite EDGE, but just a situational pass rusher like Ngakoue who could be had as a free agent now without using a 1st round choice.

Actually, no, there are elite edges who were not good run-stoppers. And they play and make millions in NFl and go to the HOF.

But the point I misunderstood is why you call Ngakoue " a situational pass rusher". That term, to me, has meaning. He's a starting DE, not a situational guy. he is not a good run player, but he is good enough to stay in the game... not go into the game only in passing situations. And as a DE he's been decent for a 3rd rounder. If Rams get 65 sacks over next 8 years out of Young, a 3rd round pick, they'd be saving in the streets.

Second part is you are assuming Turner (I think that is what you are saying) cannot play the run or won't. I think that assumes too much. That he cannot do it. It's a learned trait.

And again, the Ngakoue comparison is confusing. He was a 3rd round pick who was 6-2, 245 pounds who ran a 4.7 or 4.8, Turner is maybe the same size or a little bigger but runs a sub-4.5.

He played at a powerhouse --- that kind of speed makes a huge difference.

So yeah, I miss your point on Ngakoue. I don't get the comparison on speed, skills, ratings coming out of college, etc.

You say draftnik media who do this for living think Bowers and Turner are about the same and I disagree. Some might, but I question this for others.

Well, my point is they DO and I can show that. Sure, you can question them, we all can. But I can question you. And you can question me. It's all fair game.

Besides, there can be a hierarchy in the ranges and there's a difference between player rankings and where players are expected to be selected. Kiper hollers this every year pointing out the difference between his big board (player rankings) and a mock draft.

The same draftnik media that will tell you that Bowers is the best TE to come out in years and potentially a generational talent will also tell you how this EDGE class doesn't compare to some of the other highly rated EDGE rushers that have come out over the years. If they did they would be projected to be drafted much higher than they have been thus far simply due to the premium need at the position around the league. There's no chance in the world that 3 WRs in a deep WR draft class would be projected to go ahead of the first EDGE rusher.

I wish I could remember where I heard it, but years ago someone pointed out how a players pass rush potential/athleticism can skew player grades given the importance of rushing the passer. He made the point referring to high grades Bruce Irvin received despite off the field concerns and little to no interest in run defense. There no doubt in my mind that still happens today. If it didn't I find it hard to believe than anyone would have Turner ranked ahead of Verse.

Again, this is just you saying you disagree with some of the ratings of Turner. Okay, fine you disagree. But they, disagree with you.
If you have examples, I would be glad to look at them. But I see Turner being rated at worst, top 15 and Bowers also in the top 15, with both likely gone by 19 anyway and both will be taken about the same.

if that is not ranked the same, hence, if equal, then go with the edge rusher comment.

Finally, I can't say that i care one bit if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm just giving an opinion and answering responses.

That's fine. And that is why I am engaging. I am only pointing out this exact thing. You are hyping a kid you like. That's fine. I am only responding to say I disagree and I disagree based on a lot of factors. I am not trying to change your mind. You're locked in and that'ss your right.

I've just tried to day I have heard hype before and will hear hype again for various players. And to me, this kid is seemingly a very good prospect. I just don't subscribe that he's what you portend he is. We just disagree.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I was pretty sure Jourdan said they were looking to trade up for D but it was so long ago I don't know anymore.

She said in today’s 11Personnel that they were trying to trade up for an offensive skill position player. TE, WR, RB

So maybe :
Jordan Addison
Jaxon Smith-Njigba
Zay Flowers
Dalton Kincaid

 

[hotanez]

She said in today’s 11Personnel that they were trying to trade up for an offensive skill position player. TE, WR, RB

So maybe :
Jordan Addison
Jaxon Smith-Njigba
Zay Flowers
Dalton Kincaid

I'm glad the deal fell thru, I liked getting Avila better.

 

[JimY53]

I'm glad the deal fell thru, I liked getting Avila better.

Agree. I wanted IOL and we got one. I usually get disappointed but Rams weakness in 2022 was al the injuries on OL,
especially inside.

Avila is what Rams needed and also was among the BPA when their pick came around.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The guest on 11 personnel, Diante Lee, believes the Rams would like Latu. If not him, then a power rusher like Verse. He thinks they wouldn’t want Chop because he’s too similar to Byron Young. ( I don’t know why).

He thinks they will go back to a traditional 3/4 and try to draft one or probably two big bodied DTs.

If they go offense in round 1, then they’d likely take a guy like Jonah Ellis or Bralen Trice as edge rushers in round 3. With a run stuffer in round 2 and maybe 3.

He thinks LBer or slot corner or safety later, it’s all about the pass rush.

 

[Memphis Ram]

But there is quite a difference in going from more gap blocking to adding a fullback and lead plays. And the trend went from a few lead plays with Skow to almost none. So your projection, IMO, was not based on what they were doing. It just seemed to be because you say Bowers can lead block on an NFL level that McVay would then use that kind of play.

That's just too many "ifs". If McVay wanted to lead block, he'd lead block. Changing from OZ to duo and gap blocking did not mean more ISO stuff ... so you, IMO were reaching. If he wanted to do that he'd get a true lead blocker, not a tight end who, on occasion, lead blocked. Sorry, no sale, it's not how McVay works.

Doesn't matter. The point being made is that there can be change with McVay. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I only bring it up because you brought it up. I don't think Rams use lead blocks no matter who the personnel. They block the way they block and what is consistent is how the WRs block from tight or "nasty" formations.

Same thing. There can be change. Especially if there is added personnel to facilitate it.

Example. Add Cooper Kupp and he thrives and then all the sudden the receiving TE isn't as big an option in McVay's offensive picture. Remember, Gerald Everett was selected before Kupp with McVay probably looking to find another Jordan Reed like talent like he had in Washington. CHANGE.

But it's pure speculation based on what you think of him. And yes, teams that have a FB do it on a high level. and and "good enough". Juice is a great lead blocker.

And I understand you are not saying a full-time position -- trust me I get what you are saying. I am only replying to your comments. I don't think, even if Rams had him, that he'd lead block at all. I don't think he does it much in college. This is just a gimmick --- something he can do once in a while not as a main course.

Skow can PLAY FB, just does not mean he's good at it. Good enough to use 20 times in one season. So what if a TE can do that? Higs could have done it. Kelce *could* do it. Kittle *could* do it ... they put guards and tackles in on short yardage to di it on a rare occasion. No matter what, it's not enough to pick him over an edge if the talent were roughly equal. That's my view.

At least you recognize that it's an option. But no one has even remotely stated said option would be enough to pick him over an EGDE if the talent were equal.

So Heidi Klum can cook? Great. But not a difference-maker.

I am refuting that he's Juice/Deebo/Kelce/Kupp all rolled into one. Sorry, that's not what he looks like to me. I am not trying to change your mind, just not buying it. I've seen a little football in my time and any team would be lucky if he's as good as Kittle or Kelce since the vast majority of the time he would be doing what they do.

I still think you just like the kid and are hyping him beyond being a good prospect as a move TE. All the rest? I don't buy based on what I see and what others say.

Well show me that they do. And I can show you some that don't. But again, make sure you aren't confusing rankings/ grades vs. projected draft position because they are two different things..

Actually, no, there are elite edges who were not good run-stoppers. And they play and make millions in NFl and go to the HOF.

But the point I misunderstood is why you call Ngakoue " a situational pass rusher". That term, to me, has meaning. He's a starting DE, not a situational guy. he is not a good run player, but he is good enough to stay in the game... not go into the game only in passing situations. And as a DE he's been decent for a 3rd rounder. If Rams get 65 sacks over next 8 years out of Young, a 3rd round pick, they'd be saving in the streets.

Second part is you are assuming Turner (I think that is what you are saying) cannot play the run or won't. I think that assumes too much. That he cannot do it. It's a learned trait.

And again, the Ngakoue comparison is confusing. He was a 3rd round pick who was 6-2, 245 pounds who ran a 4.7 or 4.8, Turner is maybe the same size or a little bigger but runs a sub-4.5.

He played at a powerhouse --- that kind of speed makes a huge difference.

So yeah, I miss your point on Ngakoue. I don't get the comparison on speed, skills, ratings coming out of college, etc.

A player who is a great pass rusher but struggles vs. the run is at his best as situational pass rusher to me. Sure, that player could start and play every down if a team is willing to work around that weakness. But, said player at his best would be limited to being as a situational pass rusher playing the position in my eyes. BTW, this is probably the reason why the guy keeps changing teams and is a free agent today.

For example, I could line up a safety at LB like the Cowboys tried to do last year. And yes, his listed position would be LB. He could play the majority of his snaps there. But, when I watch him play, I'll either see a legit LB or a safety playing LB.

Again, this is just you saying you disagree with some of the ratings of Turner. Okay, fine you disagree. But they, disagree with you.
If you have examples, I would be glad to look at them. But I see Turner being rated at worst, top 15 and Bowers also in the top 15, with both likely gone by 19 anyway and both will be taken about the same.

if that is not ranked the same, hence, if equal, then go with the edge rusher comment.

Again, you are going with ranges. Top 15. If they are grouped equally within that top 15, great. But, that's not how it works. There can be a hierarchy within the top 15. For example, last I checked Dane Brugler had Bowers rated as a top 5 talent, but had Turner about 12 or so. That's not equal.

That's fine. And that is why I am engaging. I am only pointing out this exact thing. You are hyping a kid you like. That's fine. I am only responding to say I disagree and I disagree based on a lot of factors. I am not trying to change your mind. You're locked in and that'ss your right.

I've just tried to day I have heard hype before and will hear hype again for various players. And to me, this kid is seemingly a very good prospect. I just don't subscribe that he's what you portend he is. We just disagree.

If I'm not mistaken, this was established very early in our exchange.

But, I will tell you as a long-time draftnik, judging current players by what you heard about past players isn't the best way to grade them.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I'm glad the deal fell thru, I liked getting Avila better.

Agree. I wanted IOL and we got one. I usually get disappointed but Rams weakness in 2022 was al the injuries on OL,
especially inside.

Avila is what Rams needed and also was among the BPA when their pick came around.

Jourdan went on to say that they ended up getting the player that scouts were pounding the table for and felt was BPA (Avila)

I was elated with the Avila pick and the new emphasis on Oline.

Snead had eluded to needing to rein McVay in, because he’s always craving offensive weapons in round 1.

 

[Memphis Ram]

The guest on 11 personnel, Diante Lee, believes the Rams would like Latu. If not him, then a power rusher like Verse. He thinks they wouldn’t want Chop because he’s too similar to Byron Young. ( I don’t know why).

He thinks they will go back to a traditional 3/4 and try to draft one or probably two big bodied DTs.

If they go offense in round 1, then they’d likely take a guy like Jonah Ellis or Bralen Trice as edge rushers in round 3. With a run stuffer in round 2 and maybe 3.

He thinks LBer or slot corner or safety later, it’s all about the pass rush.

This makes too much sense to me. Just so long as an early draft selection isn't used on a big-bodied DT whose had issues keeping his weight in check.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

This makes too much sense to me. Just so long as an early draft selection isn't used on a big-bodied DT who’s had issues keeping his weight in check.

Diante mentioned Sweat a few times but projects him to be a third round selection. He also said, now his dui needs to be sussed out also. He mentioned Kris Jenkins also.

 

[JimY53]

Doesn't matter. The point being made is that there can be change with McVay. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Well, it matters to me. The degree of change. No matter what this TE can do, Rams are not going to lead block. If they wanted to do that they would draft a FB---then I would believe it.

I just disagree.

Same thing. There can be change. Especially if there is added personnel to facilitate it.

Example. Add Cooper Kupp and he thrives and then all the sudden the receiving TE isn't as big an option in McVay's offensive picture. Remember, Gerald Everett was selected before Kupp with McVay probably looking to find another Jordan Reed like talent like he had in Washington. CHANGE.

That's not change, that's trying to form what he wanted to do all along. It was just his first and second year in NFL. He's now got a track record. He's not a guy who is going to run ISOs and leads. it's not his DNA.

At least you recognize that it's an option. But no one has even remotely stated said option would be enough to pick him over an EGDE if the talent were equal.

Well, it seemed like that is what you were saying, this one thing elevates him into something super special. I thought you were saying that he was a Juice/Deebo/Kupp etc combination and while he may be a great prospect I was not buying that hype and you said those things made him worthy of trading up for or going to get him, things like that.

If you are not saying that then fine. I was only pushing back on what I saw as predraft hype I've seen for a couple of decades ... this guy can do this, this guy and do that as a TE and then they end up being good players ... and all the time the best TEs, Kittle and Kelce, we not hyped as much. They went later in draft not super high.

Well show me that they do. And I can show you some that don't. But again, make sure you aren't confusing rankings/ grades vs. projected draft position because they are two different things..

A player who is a great pass rusher but struggles vs. the run is at his best as situational pass rusher to me. Sure, that player could start and play every down if a team is willing to work around that weakness. But, said player at his best would be limited to being as a situational pass rusher playing the position in my eyes. BTW, this is probably the reason why the guy keeps changing teams and is a free agent today.

Well, that is a difference in the definitions of words. To be a situational pass rusher is one who plays in passing situations. A gu ywho playes every down, to me, is a starter. And starters can be strong in one thing, poor in another. Or average at both and everywhere in between. So, I was not understanding your definition. By your definition first first half of last year Hoecht was a situational pass rusher because he had problems setting the edge. To me he was a starter that was making mistakes.

I couldn't care less about Yannick changing teams. A lot of it was teams see the value of a guy who can rush the passer. Why they kept starting him is not my department. They were willing to lose some run defense for someone they thought was going to get 10 sacks and 3-4-5 forced fumbles. And that is, to me, good production for a 3rd round guy.

For example, I could line up a safety at LB like the Cowboys tried to do last year. And yes, his listed position would be LB. He could play the majority of his snaps there. But, when I watch him play, I'll either see a legit LB or a safety playing LB.

Well, with Yannick his listed position and what he was playing were the same. He was a starter, though. You just say things differently than I am used to. To me, Yannick was a starter, not a situational guy. Just like Dwight Freeney was a starter, not a situational guy but maybe you'd call him a situational pass rusher.

I'd call him Freeney a starting DE who didn't play the run very well. So, I take it you were really saying Yannick SHOULD have not been a starter, that he should have been a situational player because of his weakness. So fine, I better understand your verbiage for things.
When I see guys playing out of position, like a safety playing LBer, like Mark Barron did I would refer to him as a safety playing LBer. Just like it seems you are saying. But, I dunno, Yannick was a DE playing DE ... but hey, we all have our vocabularies. No one is right or wrong ... I just didn't get why Yannick was mentioned at all for the reasons stated --- plus he was pretty good for a 3rd rounder.

Again, you are going with ranges. Top 15. If they are grouped equally within that top 15, great. But, that's not how it works. There is hierarchy within the top 15. For example, last I checked Dane Brugler had Bowers rated as a top 5 talent, but had Turner about 12 or so. That's not equal.

These are ones I have been seeing, and they are major outlets, Sorry, but these seem equal to me. Some have Bowers higher, some have Turner higher.

Daniel Jeremiah's
Bowers 7
Turner 12

PFF
Bowers 7
Turner 16

CBS
Bowers 11
Turner 7

CBS
Bowers 13
Turner 7

33rd team
Bowers 8
Turner 10

So, we have different perceptions of what equal is. I see some with one guy higher, others with the other guy. *shrug*

If I'm not mistaken, this was established very early in our exchange.

But, I will tell you as a long-time draftnik, judging current players by what you heard about past players isn't the best way to grade them.

Well, draftniks do that all the time. And if you don't then fine. But in the vast majority of evals you see comps. It happens with draftniks, scouts do it. You read a report, "Compare to such and such".

As far as judging draftniks, it's good we don't do it harshly. Either the pro scouts or the fans. Both miss all the time. It's hard. You never know what is inside a guy. if you go by what they do in the NFL, some guys would be first-round picks that were 5th rounders. Others taken in mid-1st round that should have been #1 overall. And #1 overalls that should have been 3rd or 7th rounders.

That is exactly why I question guys that get overhyped.

Even people who spend their lives doing this get it wrong. So, when I hear you love this guy, then I say, "Yeah, okay, but he's not as valuable as an elite edge" it's just what I think based on years of following this sport.

And I still feel that way. If both are equally talented, then take the edge. That's really all I said. It seems you think they are not evenly rated. To me, they are. We disagree.

I have no idea if Turner will be great, good or average or bad. Same with Bowers. Odds are both will be good, based on 1st rounders do better than second-rounders. And second better than third all the way to the 7th (in terms of sticking and playing and in All-Pro, Pros Bowls, etc)

I will maintain edge is more valuable than a move TE if both are equally talented. I will also say Rams need an edge for than a move TE. I don't think Rams will take this kid, and if they do, will change the offense in any significant way. If they take him he'd play where Gerald Everett did.

In the meantime, Rams would be better off getting a great single-side WR than a move TE, again, if equally talented. That's just my view.

Sorry, I simply don't agree with you. I am not saying you are 100% wrong or I am 100% right. I am saying I have enough information to believe what I believe, this stuff isn't new to me.

I think if Bowers is as good as Kelce --- the odds? Pretty low. That's just me.