OROY, Puka Nacua?

[JimY53]

Okay.

I just think dismissing the impact a QB makes as a function of analytics is, at best, a dubious approach.

False choice. You do not "dismiss the impact of the QB" just because you think it's possible someone else can win a major MVP/POY award. You are welcome to your opinion. if you think it's dubious, fine.

I feel it is dubious to simply ignore other great years by other great players because of a position bias in favor of quarterbacks. If you follow that logic, ANY quarterback is going to be more "valuable" than any other player.

Example---by the approach of analytics only --- I will use SIS which uses analytics to convert to points ... in 2021 Kupp earned 59. That would put him right around Jimmy G and Jared Goff and Tua for that year. It would be the same for PFF's WAR, etc.

So, as I said I understand the analytics very well. I simply reject the absolutism of them. I refuse to be a slave to them.

Perhaps you're getting too wrapped into the 2023 race with Stroud. I am discussing the approach of just awarding QBs something just because they are quarterbacks. The Kupp/Jimmy G/Goff example paints it well.

I am not saying absolutely that Stroud should not get it and that Puka should. I am saying any approach that automatically rules Puka out is wrong in my book.

The QB, literally, has a/the key role in every offensive play.

That has been true for many decades.

It didn't stop Jim Brown from being MVP. Eric Dickerson from being Offensive Rookie of the Year over Marino. Randy Moss from Offensive Rookie of the Year and so on.

I like it that guys like Barkley beat out Baker Mayfield (27 TDs passes as rookie) or Mac Jones (yes, he had good stats and value) not winning ... even though his "value" was greater than Ja''Marr Chase.

I get that Mayfield and Jones had a bigger WAR or "points" or EPA than the Barkley and Chase but it would have been wrong to give it to the QB because he has the key role in every play.

My critique of Puka are that he's had too many drops and that hurts his value a little bit. So He won't win. And that's fine. But he will get some votes because, thank goodness, the AP voters have not made it a "QB only" award as evidenced by their history of awards.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Kupped]

False choice. You do not "dismiss the impact of the QB" just because you think it's possible someone else can win a major MVP/POY award. You are welcome to your opinion. if you think it's dubious, fine.

I feel it is dubious to simply ignore other great years by other great players because of a position bias in favor of quarterbacks. If you follow that logic, ANY quarterback is going to be more "valuable" than any other player.

Example---by the approach of analytics only --- I will use SIS which uses analytics to convert to points ... in 2021 Kupp earned 59. That would put him right around Jimmy G and Jared Goff and Tua for that year. It would be the same for PFF's WAR, etc.

So, as I said I understand the analytics very well. I simply reject the absolutism of them. I refuse to be a slave to them.

Perhaps you're getting too wrapped into the 2023 race with Stroud. I am discussing the approach of just awarding QBs something just because they are quarterbacks. The Kupp/Jimmy G/Goff example paints it well.

I am not saying absolutely that Stroud should not get it and that Puka should. I am saying any approach that automatically rules Puka out is wrong in my book.



That has been true for many decades.

It didn't stop Jim Brown from being MVP. Eric Dickerson from being Offensive Rookie of the Year over Marino. Randy Moss from Offensive Rookie of the Year and so on.

I like it that guys like Barkley beat out Baker Mayfield (27 TDs passes as rookie) or Mac Jones (yes, he had good stats and value) not winning ... even though his "value" was greater than Ja''Marr Chase.

I get that Mayfield and Jones had a bigger WAR or "points" or EPA than the Barkley and Chase but it would have been wrong to give it to the QB because he has the key role in every play.

My critique of Puka are that he's had too many drops and that hurts his value a little bit. So He won't win. And that's fine. But he will get some votes because, thank goodness, the AP voters have not made it a "QB only" award as evidenced by their history of awards.

Agree to disagree.

I have repeatedly pointed out Stroud is having an exceptional year... because that's what this thread is about.
Stroud is having a year where he's playing at a record setting pace... so, he's *performing* his position every bit as well as Puka is performing his... and it's a position that is valued more.

Player value is a thing and always has been.. that's why we don't see offensive lineman getting this award.. or off-ball linebacker.

That’s it.

And a QB having an exceptional year is more impactful than a WR having an exceptional year.

That’s it.

I haven’t ruled Puka out.. downplayed his performance or value or suggested he’s not worthy of the award.

He is. And would’ve won many/most years.

To be clear.. *the combination of being excellent at a position of greater value* is what I'm talking about. The value differentiates the two.

I'm just repeating all this because I do not believe that it should only be a QB award.

So, I actually agree with your value system when it comes to awards. I'm strictly discussing Stroud & Puka.

 

[JimY53]

I'm strictly discussing Stroud & Puka.

And I wasn't.

On that specific topic, I will wait and see what I think after Week 18. Each has two games to go. In my mind, a fait accompli. But I don't have a vote, so what I think does not matter.


Puka could lay an egg the last two weeks and Stroud go back to his early season form. Or Puka could set all-time rookie records. I can see him getting 10-12 catches and 150 yards in the next two games---setting both records. (then it becomes issue of the 14-game season vs 17-game season, but that is a discussion for another day) -- nows he's 3rd and 5th.

For the voters? Sure, they will go for Stroud if he's even average the last two weeks. The only way Puka has a chance is if he goes off the next two weeks, smashes the records and Stroud plays like he did in his last game ... or if he throws too many picks.

And their opinions are what matters.

 

[blackbart]

Who is Stroud going to throw to the last two games? His best receiver, maybe 2 of them are out.

 

[SWAdude]

Some saying Puka a long shot.

What a crock of crap.

There should be ZERO question at this point.

 

[dieterbrock]

Like OROY, MVP, Heisman trophy etc, the weight leans heavily towards the QB.
It is what it is.
Stroud pretty much had it locked down until he got the concussion.
He WAS having a monumental season, only throwing an INT in 3 of his 13 games, and being the difference maker with this team.
Keep in mind, they had only won 7 games total in the 2 seasons prior to Stroud arrival, and they won 7 games alone in his first 12 starts.
*BUT*
The door is ajar
Stroud was awful against the Jets before he left the game. His concussion is taking longer than normal. With a playoff spot available, they need him. If he plays great in the last 2, it doesn’t matter what Puka does, CJ will win.
However, if Stroud plays poorly, Puka could slip past.
Tall order for sure, but there’s still a chance.

*** cue the annoying and no longer funny Jim Carrey meme/gif

 

[Flint]

If Stroud plays poorly, or doesn’t play at all.
If Puka’s out here breaking records while Stroud sits out I think people would not be ok with it if Stroud won ROY. If they are both playing well the qb will get selected but the front runner looks like he’s cramping down the stretch.

 

[Allen2McVay]

Week 16, and there's a legitimate discussion on whether the final pick in the 5th Round (who is a Ram!) should win the Offensive Rookie of the Year Award over the second-overall-selection.

THAT is pretty cool.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Week 16, and there's a legitimate discussion on whether the final pick in the 5th Round (who is a Ram!) should win the Offensive Rookie of the Year Award over the second-overall-selection.

THAT is pretty cool.

Peace in our time

 

[Kupped]

Week 16, and there's a legitimate discussion on whether the final pick in the 5th Round (who is a Ram!) should win the Offensive Rookie of the Year Award over the second-overall-selection.

THAT is pretty cool.

Not only that...
He's actually a sixth round pick, when you think about it. He was pick number 177.. a comp pick for the end of the 5th round.. but, without comp picks? That would be a mid-sixth rounder.

Unbelievable.

And, the thing is, he keeps getting better. I still can't believe that sliding.. twisting catch last week.

 

[Kupped]

Oh.. and after this weekend.. Puka is #4 in the league in yardage and tied for 8th in receptions.

 

[JimY53]

Some saying Puka a long shot.

What a crock of crap.

There should be ZERO question at this point.

He is a longshot based on a few factors. My feeling is that he should be a long shot. Should be closer than it is.

 

[RamDino]

If MVP went to the best player in football Aaron Donald would have won like 8 years in a row. Yeah, QB position gets the most attention.

 

[PARAM]

CJ Stroud has been the presumptive leader for OROY, but he has been out for December with a concussion and availability matters. Remember Carson Wentz was a shoe-in for the award before he was injured at the LA Coliseum near the end of the season?

Wentz was injured vs the Rams in 2017. He was a rookie in 2016. He was a "shoe in" for MVP not OROY.

Not only is Stroud injured but he hasn't played all that great the last 5 games. He had a 5 TD, 470 yard day in week 9, which skewed his stats. His first 7 games, he had a 60% comp pct., 9 TD, 1 Int, 1800 yards, which was impressive. Then that huge day vs Tampa (which woke them up). Since then (5 GP), he's completed 63% with 6 TD, 4 Int, 4 Fum/2 FumL and he's been sacked 17 times. Now he's missed 2 games and part of another. Yeah he's a QB, who's done well so he'll probably win it. But....

Puka is tearing it up. Top 10 in every catagory, top 5 in most. Not only that but he was asked to be THE GUY the first 4 weeks without Kupp and he was. In spades. If Stroud wins it, it'll be the biggest travesty since Gurley got screwed.

 

[HitStick]

It's between puka, stroud and gibbs. All of them deserve it.

Laporta deserves a mention

 

[Loyal]

Wentz was injured vs the Rams in 2017. He was a rookie in 2016. He was a "shoe in" for MVP not OROY.

Not only is Stroud injured but he hasn't played all that great the last 5 games. He had a 5 TD, 470 yard day in week 9, which skewed his stats. His first 7 games, he had a 60% comp pct., 9 TD, 1 Int, 1800 yards, which was impressive. Then that huge day vs Tampa (which woke them up). Since then (5 GP), he's completed 63% with 6 TD, 4 Int, 4 Fum/2 FumL and he's been sacked 17 times. Now he's missed 2 games and part of another. Yeah he's a QB, who's done well so he'll probably win it. But....

Puka is tearing it up. Top 10 in every catagory, top 5 in most. Not only that but he was asked to be THE GUY the first 4 weeks without Kupp and he was. In spades. If Stroud wins it, it'll be the biggest travesty since Gurley got screwed.

Yes, you are right about Wentz.

 

[Jacobarch]

On most years absolutely 100% deserves it. But the voters won't ever give it to somebody else if a QB is even a valid option. Stroud for the Houston Shitstains will likely win.

Isn't he out for the season? No doubt Stroud has been good. Not epic, but shouldn't it be a requirement to actually be playing to win the damn award?

 

[OldSchool]

Isn't he out for the season? No doubt Stroud has been good. Not epic, but shouldn't it be a requirement to actually be playing to win the damn award?

If he's out for the season that's a recent thing I hadn't heard yet.

 

[JimY53]

If he's out for the season that's a recent thing I hadn't heard yet.

He's cleared protocol ... should be good to go

 

[OldSchool]

He's cleared protocol ... should be good to go

Yeah I hadn't heard anything about missing the year.