Stafford and those 2 first-rounders - worth it?

[Kupped]

He's one of the best safeties in football. But like almost every player, he has flaws. Imagine if a team took Cooper Kupp and asked him to almost entirely run deep routes. Imagine if a team took D.K. Metcalf and asked him to do what Cooper Kupp does. Smart coordinators understand their players' strengths and weaknesses. They design their schemes around playing to the strengths and masking the weaknesses.

Jamal Adams can be a gamewrecker if you used correctly. He's a force against the run, he's an elite blitzer, and he's quite good when used as a robber. He's also effective at covering tight ends. What Jamal Adams is not is a safety who can man up against WRs or excel in deep zone coverage. Play to his strengths, and you have an All Pro. There aren't a lot of guys in the NFL you can say that about.

As for the trade, it won't go down as one of the worst trades in recent years. People might make it out to be that because it hasn't panned out for Seattle in the way they expected. They thought they had a window and were going for a Super Bowl. Things fells apart. But Jamal Adams isn't the reason things didn't work out. He didn't screw things up there. Some people will scapegoat him, but the reality of what both Seattle and us do is that you look like geniuses trading those picks until the wheels come off.

He's not effective covering TEs. Eyeball test and coverage grades confirm that.

I understand where you're coming from, but if you're not at an elite coverage level compared to other safeties, you just can't be considered an elite safety to me. I understand the stats. He's the highest paid safety in the NFL.

The analog I'll use is Russell Westbrook... gets great numbers and is a great player... and isn't.
The flaws in his game are absolutely fatal when it comes to this era of the NBA and winning in the playoffs. The poor shooting, at his position, is too much to overcome... especially with someone who's taking up that much salary cap. Like Adams.

You're either sending him as a 5th rusher... or you have a guy the other team will target in the pass game if he drops into coverage and you're sending out 4+ WRs. It's too easy to marginalize him.

He can be effective at times.. but not against the best offenses.

I don't lump him in with the Rams trades, at all. Ramsey is ultra-elite.. there's just no comparison. There's nothing an offense can do to take advantage of him.

Adams doesn't get interceptions and he doesn't get his hands on balls in coverage and he doesn't blanket guys.

You pay a premium for QBs, WRs, Corners and Pass Rushers... not safeties.

He makes big, splashy hits as times.. and I think that's why Pete fell in love. He thought he had another Kam.

 

[FrantikRam]

He's one of the best safeties in football. But like almost every player, he has flaws. Imagine if a team took Cooper Kupp and asked him to almost entirely run deep routes. Imagine if a team took D.K. Metcalf and asked him to do what Cooper Kupp does. Smart coordinators understand their players' strengths and weaknesses. They design their schemes around playing to the strengths and masking the weaknesses.

Jamal Adams can be a gamewrecker if you used correctly. He's a force against the run, he's an elite blitzer, and he's quite good when used as a robber. He's also effective at covering tight ends. What Jamal Adams is not is a safety who can man up against WRs or excel in deep zone coverage. Play to his strengths, and you have an All Pro. There aren't a lot of guys in the NFL you can say that about.

As for the trade, it won't go down as one of the worst trades in recent years. People might make it out to be that because it hasn't panned out for Seattle in the way they expected. They thought they had a window and were going for a Super Bowl. Things fells apart. But Jamal Adams isn't the reason things didn't work out. He didn't screw things up there. Some people will scapegoat him, but the reality of what both Seattle and us do is that you look like geniuses trading those picks until the wheels come off.

This is a weird hill you're choosing to die on. On multiple fronts.

He's just not worth two firsts. Maybe it's his position, maybe his abilities. With their record being what it is they've given up more than we gave for Stafford, more than we gave for Ramsey.

Awful.

 

[RamsSince1969]

 

[Angry Ram]

View attachment 50744

View: https://youtu.be/O4aVvEt3oJQ

 

[jrry32]

This is a weird hill you're choosing to die on. On multiple fronts.

He's just not worth two firsts. Maybe it's his position, maybe his abilities. With their record being what it is they've given up more than we gave for Stafford, more than we gave for Ramsey.

Awful.

I disagree. And I don't care if it's a "weird hill . . . to die on." Right is right.

 

[jrry32]

He's not effective covering TEs. Eyeball test and coverage grades confirm that.

I understand where you're coming from, but if you're not at an elite coverage level compared to other safeties, you just can't be considered an elite safety to me. I understand the stats. He's the highest paid safety in the NFL.

The analog I'll use is Russell Westbrook... gets great numbers and is a great player... and isn't.
The flaws in his game are absolutely fatal when it comes to this era of the NBA and winning in the playoffs. The poor shooting, at his position, is too much to overcome... especially with someone who's taking up that much salary cap. Like Adams.

You're either sending him as a 5th rusher... or you have a guy the other team will target in the pass game if he drops into coverage and you're sending out 4+ WRs. It's too easy to marginalize him.

He can be effective at times.. but not against the best offenses.

I don't lump him in with the Rams trades, at all. Ramsey is ultra-elite.. there's just no comparison. There's nothing an offense can do to take advantage of him.

Adams doesn't get interceptions and he doesn't get his hands on balls in coverage and he doesn't blanket guys.

You pay a premium for QBs, WRs, Corners and Pass Rushers... not safeties.

He makes big, splashy hits as times.. and I think that's why Pete fell in love. He thought he had another Kam.

You're wrong.

The Jets Will Not Be Able To Replicate Jamal Adams' Dominance

If the New York Jets fail to retain Jamal Adams, they are simply not going to replicate his otherworldly production.

jetsxfactor.com

 

[rdw]

 

[jacktheripper85]

You're wrong.

The Jets Will Not Be Able To Replicate Jamal Adams' Dominance

If the New York Jets fail to retain Jamal Adams, they are simply not going to replicate his otherworldly production.

jetsxfactor.com

Who cares what some guy with unknown credentials wrote a year ago. Bottom line is both teams he’s played on have had losing records.

I don’t think anyone disputes that he’s talented and can make some big time splash plays.

The question becomes does his impact in regards to leadership and wins warrant what Seattle gave up for him. As of now a resounding No. and as of now he’s not even on the field so that doesn’t help.

To be honest Earl Thomas was a much better all around player than him.

 

[Kupped]

You're wrong.

The Jets Will Not Be Able To Replicate Jamal Adams' Dominance

If the New York Jets fail to retain Jamal Adams, they are simply not going to replicate his otherworldly production.

jetsxfactor.com

I'm right.
That's a post from last year.
His performance in coverage has been bad since he's been with the Seahawks.

Sorry. PFF Grade of 60 this year.. in the 50s last year.. and, again... doesn't get his hands on balls.. almost no ints.

 

[Kupped]

Here's what a homer blog for LSU players says about his performance this year...

Column: Jamal Adams disappointing for Seahawks, must step up

There is no questioning Jamal Adams’ toughness. Injuries he dealt with during the 2020 season included a hyperextended elbow, dislocated ring and middle fingers, a strained groin and a dislocated

www.lsureveille.com

 

[FrantikRam]

I disagree. And I don't care if it's a "weird hill . . . to die on." Right is right.

It's okay to admit when you're wrong.

At the end of the day it's a subjective thing I suppose, but Adams isn't providing them nearly enough value to justify that trade. Seahawks fans themselves would tell you it was an awful trade.

 

[jrry32]

It's okay to admit when you're wrong.

At the end of the day it's a subjective thing I suppose, but Adams isn't providing them nearly enough value to justify that trade. Seahawks fans themselves would tell you it was an awful trade.

LOL. Imagine lecturing me about the futility of this debate and then immediately afterwards deciding to jump into the debate with a conclusory statement aimed at defeating a straw man. Get out of here, man.

I'm right.
That's a post from last year.
His performance in coverage has been bad since he's been with the Seahawks.

Sorry. PFF Grade of 60 this year.. in the 50s last year.. and, again... doesn't get his hands on balls.. almost no ints.

Because Ken Norton Jr. is incompetent. Yet, despite that fact, Adams still transformed their defense in 2020. Gregg Williams is no unparalleled genius, but even that dude understood how to maximize Adams's value.

Who cares what some guy with unknown credentials wrote a year ago. Bottom line is both teams he’s played on have had losing records.

I don’t think anyone disputes that he’s talented and can make some big time splash plays.

The question becomes does his impact in regards to leadership and wins warrant what Seattle gave up for him. As of now a resounding No. and as of now he’s not even on the field so that doesn’t help.

To be honest Earl Thomas was a much better all around player than him.

The Seahawks won the division last year. Their record doesn't turn on one player. Aaron Donald played on a team with a losing record each of his first three years in the NFL. That didn't diminish him as a player. Substitute in Ramsey (who is a better player) for Adams, and Seattle is in the same boat they're in now. That doesn't diminish Jalen as a player. They saw a window, went for it, and came up short last year. Things went to hell this year.

That's how it is in the NFL. If Matt Stafford gets hurt and misses most of the year next year, we could end up in a similar position (giving away a top pick). Shit happens. Adams was one of the best defensive players in the NFL. There was nothing wrong with the trade at the time. And Earl Thomas is irrelevant. Prime Earl Thomas wasn't an option.

 

[Kupped]

LOL. Imagine lecturing me about the futility of this debate and then immediately afterwards deciding to jump into the debate with a conclusory statement aimed at defeating a straw man. Get out of here, man.

Because Ken Norton Jr. is incompetent. Yet, despite that fact, Adams still transformed their defense in 2020. Gregg Williams is no unparalleled genius, but even that dude understood how to maximize Adams's value.

The Seahawks won the division last year. Their record doesn't turn on one player. Aaron Donald played on a team with a losing record each of his first three years in the NFL. That didn't diminish him as a player. Substitute in Ramsey (who is a better player) for Adams, and Seattle is in the same boat they're in now. That doesn't diminish Jalen as a player. They saw a window, went for it, and came up short last year. Things went to hell this year.

That's how it is in the NFL. If Matt Stafford gets hurt and misses most of the year next year, we could end up in a similar position (giving away a top pick). Shit happens. Adams was one of the best defensive players in the NFL. There was nothing wrong with the trade at the time. And Earl Thomas is irrelevant. Prime Earl Thomas wasn't an option.

Lol.
Team defense in 2020 was almost exactly the same as team defense in 2019 in both yards and scoring, relative to the league.

Transformed... what? Into what?

I recall Seahawks defense picking it up last year after they got Dunlap.

Here's their game log from last year... Ridiculously bad defense to start the year... started to do a little better later in the year after adding Dunlap.

Words are fun, but statistics matter in this kind of discussion and Adams hasn't had any positive impact on that unit. If we want to say adding a player made a difference... the improvement in the defense coincides with getting Dunlap, not Adams. But I think the unit was improving as the season went on, is more the case.

It was an awful trade that didn't make the Seahawks any better.

 

[Merlin]

An argument over a safety a division rival traded for breaking out in a QB argument thread. This is new and maybe a good sign.

Also you people will argue about anything.

 

[jrry32]

Lol.
Team defense in 2020 was almost exactly the same as team defense in 2019 in both yards and scoring, relative to the league.

Transformed... what? Into what?

I recall Seahawks defense picking it up last year after they got Dunlap.

Here's their game log from last year... Ridiculously bad defense to start the year... started to do a little better later in the year after adding Dunlap.

Words are fun, but statistics matter in this kind of discussion and Adams hasn't had any positive impact on that unit. If we want to say adding a player made a difference... the improvement in the defense coincides with getting Dunlap, not Adams. But I think the unit was improving as the season went on, is more the case.

It was an awful trade that didn't make the Seahawks any better.

I already gave you the numbers. They were the #9 ranked defense with him playing and the #20 ranked defense without him playing. Need I say more?

 

[Kupped]

An argument over a safety a division rival traded for breaking out in a QB argument thread. This is new and maybe a good sign.

Also you people will argue about anything.

It's funny because it's true.

 

[Kupped]

I already gave you the numbers. They were the #9 ranked defense with him playing and the #20 ranked defense without him playing. Need I say more?

The Seahawks were giving up 28.6 points a game and 497 yards a game in the first three games of 2020, which Adams played in.
That would've worked out to last in yardage and 23rd in points.

When Adams returned from injury, the defense improved.
Adams first game back was also Carlos' Dunlap's first game with the Seahawks.

So, yeah... you need to say a lot more... because without Carlos Dunlap, the defense the Seahawks had with Jamal Adams was HORRIFIC.

 

[Picked4td]

View attachment 50744

fwiw, i feel its worth mentioning the rams had 19 rushing tds last year to 9 this year currently. how much of that is because mcvay didnt trust goff near the redzone but trusts stafford, who knows but it certainly gonna make the numbers look worse

 

[jrry32]

The Seahawks were giving up 28.6 points a game and 497 yards a game in the first three games of 2020, which Adams played in.
That would've worked out to last in yardage and 23rd in points.

When Adams returned from injury, the defense improved.
Adams first game back was also Carlos' Dunlap's first game with the Seahawks.

So, yeah... you need to say a lot more... because without Carlos Dunlap, the defense the Seahawks had with Jamal Adams was HORRIFIC.

That's an interesting theory. Instead of the All Pro safety who was their leading sacker and second-best run defender (behind Wagner), it was the good DE who actually changed things. Here's where your theory falls flat. Seattle's best defensive run in 2020 was a five-game stretch from Philly through the Week 16 Rams game where they held every team to 17 points or less.

During that stretch, Dunlap missed one game entirely (Seattle's best defensive performance of the season), played 33% of the snaps in another of the games, 41% of the snaps in a game, and 54% of the snaps and 60% of the snaps in the two final games. In the game he played 60% of the snaps in (against us), he had 0 tackles. In fact, Dunlap had a total of 4 tackles, 1 TFL, and 1.5 sacks over that entire stretch of games.

Jamal Adams, meanwhile, played 100% of the snaps in four of the five games and 81% of the snaps in the fifth game (because Seattle rested its starters late in a game they won 40-3). Over that five-game stretch, Adams recorded 42 tackles, 4 TFLs, and 4 sacks. In case you're curious, those numbers would project out to 134 tackles, 13 TFLs, and 13 sacks over 16 games.

You really want to argue that Carlos Dunlap was the catalyst for their defensive turnaround and not the guy who was putting up DPOY-level production in those games? C'mon. As I said earlier, the trade made sense at the time. In hindsight, it's easy to say it was a bad move because the Seahawks fell apart. They were chasing a Super Bowl and felt they had a window.

One could easily say our Brandin Cooks trade was a bad move using the same hindsight. If we had kept our 1st round pick, the three WRs who went after our pick in order were D.J. Moore, Calvin Ridley, and Courtland Sutton. But I would vehemently disagree with any person who said that it was a bad trade when we made it.

 

[jrry32]

fwiw, i feel its worth mentioning the rams had 19 rushing tds last year to 9 this year currently. how much of that is because mcvay didnt trust goff near the redzone but trusts stafford, who knows but it certainly gonna make the numbers look worse

It's very weird. Even when Goff was cooking in 2018, we had 32 passing TDs to 23 rushing TDs. This year, we have 36 passing TDs to 9 rushing TDs. Maybe McVay just loved Gurley's skillset in the red zone? IDK. (Obviously, I would agree he didn't trust Goff last year.)