Softli not digging the offensive line's vibe right now

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DR RAM

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So you are saying that you disagree with my concerns? How can you? They are MY concerns, and I qualified them. I don't disagree about you having no concerns, it just puzzles me that with all the issues currently going on that you have NONE.

However you spin your comparisons to other groups, IMO, they are pointless. Apples to oranges. That is my opinion, there is nothing you can say to change that, and I would venture to guess that 99% of posters here would agree with my view on that.

I'm glad that you are not worried, I'm sure that you have plenty of things to worry about that are more important. I'm not worried yet, either...just concerned until I see more. There is plenty of time to worry. As I stated already, I won't be worried, even if the line is horrific in the preseason opener. There is plenty of time to worry, and now is not the time.
 

Anonymous

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DR RAM said:
So you are saying that you disagree with my concerns? How can you? They are MY concerns, and I qualified them. I don't disagree about you having no concerns, it just puzzles me that with all the issues currently going on that you have NONE.

However you spin your comparisons to other groups, IMO, they are pointless. Apples to oranges. That is my opinion, there is nothing you can say to change that, and I would venture to guess that 99% of posters here would agree with my view on that.

I'm glad that you are not worried, I'm sure that you have plenty of things to worry about that are more important. I'm not worried yet, either...just concerned until I see more. There is plenty of time to worry. As I stated already, I won't be worried, even if the line is horrific in the preseason opener. There is plenty of time to worry, and now is not the time.

?

Yes I disagree with your concerns. As I just got through saying.
 

DR RAM

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zn said:
DR RAM said:
So you are saying that you disagree with my concerns? How can you? They are MY concerns, and I qualified them. I don't disagree about you having no concerns, it just puzzles me that with all the issues currently going on that you have NONE.

However you spin your comparisons to other groups, IMO, they are pointless. Apples to oranges. That is my opinion, there is nothing you can say to change that, and I would venture to guess that 99% of posters here would agree with my view on that.

I'm glad that you are not worried, I'm sure that you have plenty of things to worry about that are more important. I'm not worried yet, either...just concerned until I see more. There is plenty of time to worry. As I stated already, I won't be worried, even if the line is horrific in the preseason opener. There is plenty of time to worry, and now is not the time.

?

Yes I disagree with your concerns. As I just got through saying.
All of them, some of them, please respond in detail.
 

Lesson

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Let's keep this thread on topic please.

Also as stated in the rules:

2. Disagreement. If you have a different opinion than that of a fellow poster, debate or attack ONLY their opinion. Make the discussion about the post, not the poster.
 

Anonymous

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So you are saying that you disagree with my concerns? How can you? They are MY concerns, and I qualified them.

I don't understand this argument and I think it's cause we're just speaking past one another.

When I say I disagree with your concerns, that's a general statement referring to the fact that I do not think this line is in any jeopardy of not coming together sufficiently in the time they have, and I don't think they are in any danger of not performing effectively. IN response to that view of mine, I honestly have no idea what the phrases "they are MY concerns" (?) and "I qualified them" even mean.

I'm in a discussion where we are trying to weigh how effective this line will be. Trying to get a realistic picture. Some are worried that the line will not be brought together on time with fully functioning parts, and I don't share that view. Some think that individual weaknesses of this or that player will damage their overall effectiveness as a unit, and I don't share that view.

My own view is that in 2010 this bunch--including the 2 OTs, the qb, Amendola, and Jackson--pulled off running an efficient and effective ball control offense that kept Bradford upright. I see no reason why they cannot do that again, especially since they expressly say they ARE doing that again.

This version will undoubtedly have more variety built in, ie. more medium range plays, but still.

So. Yeah sure they can do that. So the line I see them pulling together is capable of that. Short drops for the most part, extra blockers, reliance on running, and so on. That's not beyond this bunch at all and that's even though Saffold is down right now, Smith is struggling, and when Wells although due back is NOT back yet.

What people should be nervous about is if they heard that (1) the 2 tackles are isolated one against good DEs in a wide 9, and struggling at it-- AND (2) they intend to have a wide open aerial attack with 4 WR sets, empty backfields, and 5 and 7 step drops.

Cause if they run a 2010 offense (that is, a passing game that is for the most part quicker drops) mixed in with a tough running game, then the situation where 2 OTs are isolated one on one, on 2 separate islands, against top DEs is just not going to occur that often.

I also don't think player by player analysis counts for much now when (1) we already know these players are at least good enough to execute that kind of offense, and (2) the Fisher/Boudreau way is to emphasize the scheme and set up players to succeed.

So unless something has changed, I don't see the problem.

Things DID change in 2011. They didn't know the offense well enough, they were young and yet were asked to step it up a notch, the gameplans did not bolster strengths but instead just asked them to do what the coordinator came up with in his head regardless of execution issues, players reported out of shape, they played from behind constantly so were set up to fail, and they got injured all over the place.

So many things DID change in 2011.

If I say "this group is going to be efficient at running what will be for the most part a tight ball control passing game" what has changed that would make that an out of date description. Things DID change in 2011. What if anything has changed now that would WORK AGAINST THAT. (Not "what has changed," that's too broad and abstract, but what has changed THAT WOULD WORK AGAINST THAT.)
 

-X-

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zn said:
I don't understand this argument and I think it's cause we're just speaking past one another.

When I say I disagree with your concerns, that's a general statement referring to the fact that I do not think this line is in any jeopardy of not coming together sufficiently in the time they have, and I don't think they are in any danger of not performing effectively. IN response to that view of mine, I honestly have no idea what the phrases "they are MY concerns" (?) and "I qualified them" even mean.

I'm in a discussion where we are trying to weigh how effective this line will be. Trying to get a realistic picture. Some are worried that the line will not be brought together on time with fully functioning parts, and I don't share that view. Some think that individual weaknesses of this or that player will damage their overall effectiveness as a unit, and I don't share that view.

My own view is that in 2010 this bunch--including the 2 OTs, the qb, Amendola, and Jackson--pulled off running an efficient and effective ball control offense that kept Bradford upright. I see no reason why they cannot do that again, especially since they expressly say they ARE doing that again.

This version will undoubtedly have more variety built in, ie. more medium range plays, but still.

So. Yeah sure they can do that. So the line I see them pulling together is capable of that. Short drops for the most part, extra blockers, reliance on running, and so on. That's not beyond this bunch at all and that's no matter when Saffold comes back, when Smith gets going again, and when Wells comes back.

What people should be nervous about is if they heard that (1) the 2 tackles are isolated one against good DEs in a wide 9, and struggling at it-- AND (2) they intend to have a wide open aerial attack with 4 WR sets, empty backfields, and 5 and 7 step drops.

Cause if they run a 2010 offense (that is, a passing game that is for the most part quicker drops) mixed in with a tough running game, then the situation where 2 OTs are isolated one on one, on 2 separate islands, against top DEs is just not going to occur that often.

I also don't think player by player analysis counts for much now when (1) we already know these players are at least good enough to execute that kind of offense, and (2) the Fisher/Boudreau way is to emphasize the scheme and set up players to succeed.

So unless something has changed, I don't see the problem.

Things DID change in 2011. They didn't know the offense well enough, they were young and yet were asked to step it up a notch, the gameplans did not bolster strengths but instead just asked them to do what the coordinator came up with in his head regardless of execution issues, players reported out of shape, they played from behind constantly so were set up to fail, and they got injured all over the place.

So many things DID change in 2011.

If I say "this group is going to be efficient at running what will be for the most part a tight ball control passing game" what has changed that would make that an out of date description. Things DID change in 2011. What if anything has changed now that would WORK AGAINST THAT. (Not "what has changed," that's too broad and abstract, but what has changed THAT WOULD WORK AGAINST THAT.)
I can dig that.

Basically the concerns anyone would have about any of that would be things out of the line's control. Injuries (short or long term) on the line, to Jax, or another slew of WR injuries that would disrupt the intent of the system and make it more one-dimensional. As you say, none of that has materialized yet, so we're all kinda banking on your scenario there playing out the way Fisher and Schottenheimer intend it to.

There are still lingering concerns about Wells not playing yet, Smith *appearing* to be slow to get it going, and Saffold having some difficulties as well. Your basic cohesion concerns, if you will. That's normal. And since we have no idea what the depth on this line looks like at the moment, we'll have to let it play out and hope for the best.

It's all good. Concerns, no concerns, it doesn't matter. Softli saw what he saw, but again, it's still early and it could all work out. If it doesn't, we'll know almost immediately. And we won't be pleased.
 

DR RAM

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Lesson said:
Let's keep this thread on topic please.

Also as stated in the rules:

2. Disagreement. If you have a different opinion than that of a fellow poster, debate or attack ONLY their opinion. Make the discussion about the post, not the poster.
Thanks for telling me what I should be concerned about. I'm good now.
 

joeybittick

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DR RAM said:
Lesson said:
Let's keep this thread on topic please.

Also as stated in the rules:

2. Disagreement. If you have a different opinion than that of a fellow poster, debate or attack ONLY their opinion. Make the discussion about the post, not the poster.
Thanks for telling me what I should be concerned about. I'm good now.

Good to know everything is kosher... I would hate to lock this thread because people cannot respond to each other in a civil (i.e. adult) manner...
 

DR RAM

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DR RAM said:
Lesson said:
Let's keep this thread on topic please.

Also as stated in the rules:

2. Disagreement. If you have a different opinion than that of a fellow poster, debate or attack ONLY their opinion. Make the discussion about the post, not the poster.
Thanks for telling me what I should be concerned about. I'm good now.
I posted this in the wrong thread. Sorry.
 

-X-

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So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg
 

joeybittick

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X said:
So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg


:plus1: :plus1: :wewt: :yahoo: :woooot:
 

-X-

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joeybittick said:
http://www.eonline.com/news/336859/justin-bieber-movie-star-if-i-have-anything-to-do-with-it-says-mark-wahlberg

I think we can all agree that would be just wonderful :sly:

Sometimes, when things get out of hand, you just have to find some common ground. C'mon guys, group hug!

Time for another rule I think.

#12. NO FUCKING JUSTIN BIEBER ON THIS BOARD EVER.
 

Anonymous

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X said:
So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg

Preseason can tell us some things, of course, which is why we will be watching. :cool:

A basic comparison shows something of that.

In 2010, in the Patz game, the offense was lighting them up and Bradford looked like the guy everyone thought they drafted. The OL was fine, it held up.

In 2011, even though they won the games ostensibly, the talk was all about how the OL did not seem able to pick up blitzes. Venturi was on the radio trying to figure out why. Etc.
 

joeybittick

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X said:
joeybittick said:
http://www.eonline.com/news/336859/justin-bieber-movie-star-if-i-have-anything-to-do-with-it-says-mark-wahlberg

I think we can all agree that would be just wonderful :sly:

Sometimes, when things get out of hand, you just have to find some common ground. C'mon guys, group hug!

Time for another rule I think.

#12. NO FUCKING JUSTIN BIEBER ON THIS BOARD EVER.



:nono: :idk?: :nerp:

P.S. I couldn't find one that says "the Dude"....
 

-X-

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zn said:
X said:
So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg

Preseason can tell us some things, of course, which is why we will be watching. :cool:

A basic comparison shows something of that.

In 2010, in the Patz game, the offense was lighting them up and Bradford looked like the guy everyone thought they drafted. The OL was fine, it held up.

In 2011, even though they won the games ostensibly, the talk was all about how the OL did not seem able to pick up blitzes. Venturi was on the radio trying to figure out why. Etc.
Yeah, like I said ... it won't tell me everything I wanna know.

In 2010 (preseason) the Vikings moiderized Bradford, and everyone panicked.
In 2011 (preseason) we ran the tables and everyone thought we were gonna go undefeated.

I'll just watch and comment.

You'll listen and like it. :cheese:
 

Anonymous

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X said:
zn said:
X said:
So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg

Preseason can tell us some things, of course, which is why we will be watching. :cool:

A basic comparison shows something of that.

In 2010, in the Patz game, the offense was lighting them up and Bradford looked like the guy everyone thought they drafted. The OL was fine, it held up.

In 2011, even though they won the games ostensibly, the talk was all about how the OL did not seem able to pick up blitzes. Venturi was on the radio trying to figure out why. Etc.
Yeah, like I said ... it won't tell me everything I wanna know.

In 2010 (preseason) the Vikings moiderized Bradford, and everyone panicked.
In 2011 (preseason) we ran the tables and everyone thought we were gonna go undefeated.

I'll just watch and comment.

You'll listen and like it. :cheese:

I took a different lesson from the Vikes game though, in 2010. I was one of those saying it wasn't the OL yet--Smith hadn't practiced and they started Fraley. It came together by the 3rd game, the patz game.

In 2011, yeah they won, but the OL leakage was baffling everyone.
 

brokeu91

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I've been following this thread for the last couple of days. First I think that X, Dr. Ram and Zn both have some valid points. I actually tend to agree with Zn on this one. A lot of people are very concerned about the line. What's most concerning to me is the LG spot and whether Smith can stay healthy.

Everyone agrees that Saffold and Smith came in with a fresh attitude and look much better than 2011. Given that we now have one of the best O line coaches in the business, have a full off season, have Harvey Dahl and Wells (who are upgrades from the guys in 2010), and have a similar offensive philosophy to 2010, I believe this line is at least comparable to 2010's line. We all agree that the 2010 line seemed to hold up fairly well, especially in comparison to the 2009 and 2011 lines.

Like Zn, I believe the current offensive line (once everyone who is a starter is back) has the potential to be better than 2010. What concerns me most is the LG and the depth. At least when one of our tackles went down in 2010 we had Goldberg back there to fill in. You can say what you want about Goldberg, but I thought he was a pretty good 3rd tackle. I am concerned that with any injuries our O-line will be exposed. I was hoping Rok would come in ready to compete (and be a LG and 3rd tackle), but he was out of shape. I'm not sure what to make of Barry Richardson, given his poor performance in previous stops. Fisher and Boudreau believe Richardson has improved with learning technique, but who knows how far that will go.

It's hard to gauge just how good our OTs are, because let's face it, many of us believe DE is a position of strength on this team. If you have very good DE it's going to make the OT look bad and vice-verse. Maybe Quinn and Long are just double digit sack guys and are ready to go. Heck the guy we cut last year...George Selvie is now a starter in Jacksonville. It might just be that we have excellent DE that are coming into their own.

We really won't know until the games start-even then we really won't have the starting O-line that we'll have in the first game so it may not be that much of an indication. In any case, I hope tomorrow goes well.
 

PhxRam

Guest
What?? No Justin Beiber??

Is this okay?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hihp_Jjdnsg[/youtube]
 

ramsince62

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X said:
So anyway. I'll be watching the first quarter this Sunday rather closely, and then every quarter for the rest of preseason where the *starters* will be playing (particularly the third week). It won't tell me everything I need to know, but it should give us a halfway decent picture.

Oh, and by the way. Football is back!

child-very-excited1.jpg
Me too....what I think will be extremely interesting and telling is the 3rd game here in Dallas. Everyone's excited around here (as usual) about the prospects for the Cowgirls. Unfortunately, this season, it's probably warranted (that's going to be a tough division). Anyway. since the 1's play the longest usually in game 3, plus the fact it's on the road and against a team they met last season, comparisons could be very insightful..