Isn’t it suspicious that Rams now have a string of failed drafted secondary players?

[Merlin]

You can zone with pattern matching, and our defense as well as the league at large includes plenty of that. It looks like man coverage but the corner will pass the WR on after a point. So even zone corners ideally have some man skills and good hand use to slow the wideout in that limited window near the LOS at least.

The problem for our defense was two fold IMO. Mediocre DC who is not particularly savvy at preparing or calling the back end outside of a very conservative approach. And poor talent at corner. Which, let's be honest, can sink any DC.

So why not stack this secondary at a minimum this offseason and at least start slowing opposing pass games. Get Morris some corners he has faith in and maybe his calls get better.

 

[Flatlyner]

I'd hate to examine other teams secondary picks from outside the top 50. I'd say we have a average to average + rate on ours. I'd guess, league average might be below average on later picks in secondary.

 

[AvengerRam]

In last year's draft alone, of the 212 players taken after pick #50, 42 were DBs (28 CBs, 14 safeties).

How many do you think will have long, productive, NFL careers?

 

[VegasRam]

Couldn't they have come to the conclusion, "we just paid 52.2 mil for these 8 guys and this is the defensive product we had on the field this year? 20.7 PPG? 21st in yards allowed? Now 5 of them are unrestricted free agents and 3 of them are going to cost 59.7 mil! What's wrong with this picture?"

Nice!

 

[Flatlyner]

In last year's draft alone, of the 212 players taken after pick #50, 42 were DBs (28 CBs, 14 safeties).

How many do you think will have long, productive, NFL careers?

After pick 50:

I see about 4 CB's that made an impact last year (2 on the hags sadly). This is a rough glance at the class too, could be missing someone easily.

The safety class was pretty awful after 50th pick. Couple guys played a fair amount of games, but only Belton seemed to make an impact. We have Lake and Yeast, so I hope the total turns to 3, but so far, maybe 1.

Thats 5 of 42 or roughly about 12%. Obviously that total can go up or down depending on remaining careers, but, doensn't look overly promising.

 

[oldnotdead]

It all comes down to scheme fit and how that scheme is played. Ramsey was wasted in the passive scheme that Morris uses. It's why he benched Rochell because like Ramsey he is a fast man coverage CB. If Rochell and Ramsey as well were played in a zone scheme that was coached to understand route concepts just like WRs, they wouldn't be dependent upon having to read a QB. That is a major failing of Fangio style defense. If a DB isn't coached like a WR to understand route concepts then they will always be a step late.

Morris tries to play a Fangio style defense of read and react. This is BS because that means your DBs will always be caught flat-footed. Don't believe me? Ask Aaron Glenn why he dumped the read react style. This is why Morris wanted Hill and Kendrick. Both are too slow to play man coverage. Both are strictly zone coverage CBs. But Kendrick was undisciplined and often seemed lost in the secondary. The cushion Morris gave WRs guaranteed DB failure as it gave every advantage to the WR and QB. What was sickening was when the offense got into FG range only then would Morris tighten up his defense. The question should be why not all the time?

Read and react style works in the front 7. But makes zero sense to play it in the secondary. When you explain read and react on a white board briefing it all sounds great. But in practice you are setting up the secondary for failure. To play that style the DBs need explosive starts where short area quickness count more than long speed. In that case you should have LBs not DBs.

This hasn't been a failure of players, it's been a coaching failure. Morris is a crappy DC and McVay is too loyal to his buddy not wanting to can his ass. DBs that understand route concepts can jump those routes at the top when they are in zone. That is the strength of zone if played with properly coached DBs. To call Ramsey, and Scott failures is simply wrong. This was a coaching failure. That is why I'm hoping against all odds that Pleasant will bring his Lion's experience to LA. Can this stupid read react style of defense. Read the route and jump it at the top. DBs that understand route concepts can fake out WRs by giving them one look knowing what the WR was then going to do. Shade a little bit to one side or the other knowing then how the WR is going to break, the DB knows what to expect in order to jump the route. A good QB should see it and come off the WR in his progression forcing him to hold that ball half a second longer.

If I were playing a lot of man coverages with single high safety then I would love Ramsey and Scott. Both were wasted in Morris' passive zone scheme. Morris is going to ruin this defensive roster if he stays much longer. He's a mediocre DC who loves mediocre players.

 

[PARAM]

Doesn't seem like necessarily a high drafting failure rate to me, given lack of high picks and likelihood that many players drafted by any team may not pan out. What stands out instead is that Rams have not been keeping/resigning the players who have a clear market value with other teams.

Is this a strategy to get rid of young players after (or even during) their rookie contracts? Or are these guys unplanned cap casualties? Or in fact are they just not good enough to resign?

Whether this is a strategy or not, it puts a lot of pressure on the team to come up with new bodies, presumably through the same draft process, and have them step in and play well quickly.

I think we have to defer to the fact, they are around these guys everyday. They see how they prepare, practice and perform. So letting a 3rd round CB from 4 years ago or a 7th round S from 4 yrs ago walk in free agency, might suggest they like who they have on the roster and quite possibly will add to that early in the draft. Though they've only drafted 1 CB above the 4th round in 6 years. So maybe "at some point in the draft" would be more accurate.

I think we all liked Gaines and Scott but if we're being honest, they weren't great players. Good? Complimentary? Adequate? I don't what term fans would use but I'd say "servicable". I don't remember David Long being talked up by fans in the 4 years he was here.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

I'll say it again, if we are only going to rely on drafting rookies and using UDFAs (not saying that's what we are doing cuz there is still time), we are tanking without saying we are tanking. So far I think the only player I've read about us trying to retain was Nick Scott.

 

[PARAM]

I'll say it again, if we are only going to rely on drafting rookies and using UDFAs (not saying that's what we are doing cuz there is still time), we are tanking without saying we are tanking. So far I think the only player I've read about us trying to retain was Nick Scott.

"only relying on drafting rookies and using UDFA's" for what?

We have an OL
We have a great QB
We have experienced WR
We have TEs
We have RBs

We have AD
We have E.Jones
We have Fuller
We have a bunch of 2nd year defensive backs
We have a bunch of 3rd and 4th year DL

We need some more pieces. Do they all have to come from free agency?
"So far" we haven't signed 1 free agent, other than Shelton.
Are we waiting for the market to slow down?
Are we waiting for the draft, to see what needs are still remaining.

Does every other team in the NFL have their 53 man roster for 2023 set right now?

Patience, grasshopper. We're not tanking.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

"only relying on drafting rookies and using UDFA's" for what?

We have an OL
We have a great QB
We have experienced WR
We have TEs
We have RBs

We have AD
We have E.Jones
We have Fuller
We have a bunch of 2nd year defensive backs
We have a bunch of 3rd and 4th year DL

We need some more pieces. Do they all have to come from free agency?
"So far" we haven't signed 1 free agent, other than Shelton.
Are we waiting for the market to slow down?
Are we waiting for the draft, to see what needs are still remaining.

Does every other team in the NFL have their 53 man roster for 2023 set right now?

Patience, grasshopper. We're not tanking.

Oh I have patience lol, I'm saying if we stand pat and only do that. There is still time to add to our roster for sure. I'm not expecting a full on tank yet, but I'm not expecting a great year either as we seem to be holding on to that cap for 24 where there seems to be a shit load of players becoming available since everyone seems to be signing 1 year deals. Honestly, if they eventually go the tank route, I honestly wouldn't be too upset (would feel for AD and Kupp tho) about it since it could give us a real high #1 pick to pair with our huge cap space. Either way, I'm rooting for our Rams on regardless.

 

[PARAM]

Honestly, if they eventually go the tank route, I honestly wouldn't be too upset (would feel for AD and Kupp tho) about it since it could give us a real high #1 pick to pair with our huge cap space. Either way, I'm rooting for our Rams on regardless.

And those are two reasons they're not tanking. A third is Matt Stafford. A 4th and 5th are Havenstein and Higbee.

You know how they say "it's harder to go 0-17 than 17-0". Well it's equally hard to tank and get the first pick in the draft. It would smart badly if a team tanked for Caleb Williams and only got to #2.

So they're not gonna waste a year of AD's career. Or Kupp's. Or Stafford's.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

And those are two reasons they're not tanking. A third is Matt Stafford. A 4th and 5th are Havenstein and Higbee.

You know how they say "it's harder to go 0-17 than 17-0". Well it's equally hard to tank and get the first pick in the draft. It would smart badly if a team tanked for Caleb Williams and only got to #2.

So they're not gonna waste a year of AD's career. Or Kupp's. Or Stafford's.

I'll say this, actions speak louder than words and we've been pretty actionless. Hopefully that picks up at some point. By the way tanking for me doesn't simply mean the #1 pick because it is hard to go 0-17 however we might be bad enough to garner a pick high enough to go after a top QB in the draft.

 

[PARAM]

I'll say this, actions speak louder than words and we've been pretty actionless. Hopefully that picks up at some point. By the way tanking for me doesn't simply mean the #1 pick because it is hard to go 0-17 however we might be bad enough to garner a pick high enough to go after a top QB in the draft.

Sure. The angst many are suffering right now stems from that 'actions speak louder than words'. After they traded Ramsey, cut Floyd and Wagner taking a massive dead money hit, did any reasonable fan think we were gonna sign a few UFAs right away? Of course not. We signed Shelton because he was an affordable piece to our OL puzzle.

We were gonna let the rest of the league bid against one another until the money dried up and UFA's not signed are looking for teams, not the other way around. At least in my mind, that would be the smart approach. I made a post in another thread about our money situation and what Spotrac was listing.

It's really not that bad.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

Sure. The angst many are suffering right now stems from that 'actions speak louder than words'. After they traded Ramsey, cut Floyd and Wagner taking a massive dead money hit, did any reasonable fan think we were gonna sign a few UFAs right away? Of course not.

We were gonna let the rest of league bid against one another until the money dried up and UFA's not signed are looking for teams, not the other way around. At least in my mind, that would be the smart approach. I made a post in another thread about our money situation and what Spotrac was listing.

It's really not that bad.

Our money situation is definitely better (of course we have nobody on our defense except AD now) as we could front load any contract for any player we want to have a low cap year and a higher hit in 24. I think the Robinson contract mistake, in which they did this, has made them a bit more conscious on this front. I think they really want to go young and cheap to see who actually rises to the occasion. It's a smart play IF it works (it is risky after all but what isn't) because teams control those first contracts at much lower rates than seasoned NFL players. If we plug holes that way, it gives us many different avenues to use in FA next year.

 

[Rams43]

Respectfully, I feel like there are some here who, on a lot of issues, are all too quick to condemn the team’s leadership.

Note the I used the word “condemn,” not “criticize.”

Criticism is the life blood of a sports message board. But condemnation? For a leadership team that brought a title just a year ago?

What’s the theory here? That they are basically incompetent and fell assbackwards into a title out of pure luck?

I don’t get it.

Well, we know that McVay cleaned house on his asst coaches for secondary and hired Pleasant, among others.

This is a strong indication to me that he was dissatisfied with player development in the secondary.

The results we enjoyed in the early McVay years aren’t there anymore lately.

As an aside, if I claim that Ram secondary coaches have seemed incompetent the last 2 years and that promising players have not only failed to develop but have been allowed to walk, is that criticism or condemnation? And who decides? You?

This whole board us about opinions, man, with a few facts sprinkled in from time to time. Get over yourself.

 

[AvengerRam]

Well, we know that McVay cleaned house on his asst coaches for secondary and hired Pleasant, among others.

This is a strong indication to me that he was dissatisfied with player development in the secondary.

The results we enjoyed in the early McVay years aren’t there anymore lately.

As an aside, if I claim that Ram secondary coaches have seemed incompetent the last 2 years and that promising players have not only failed to develop but have been allowed to walk, is that criticism or condemnation? And who decides? You?

This whole board us about opinions, man, with a few facts sprinkled in from time to time. Get over yourself.

Seems to me that you’re the one who bristles at opposing opinions.

Have a nice day.

 

[PARAM]

The results we enjoyed in the early McVay years aren’t there anymore lately.

"Lately" as in last year? Because the year before that the success could not be surpassed. I wouldn't call McVay's 5th season at the helm "early McVay". Early McVay might be from 2017-2019 (33-15, .688). In years 4 and 5 they went 22-11, .667. Not seeing the drop off until 2022.

If you're talking about developing DBs, did they ever try to do that? The signed Kayvon Webster and Nickell Roby-Coleman in 2017. Peters and Talib in 2018. Brought in D Will very late in 2018 (1 G) and traded for Ramsey in 2019. As far as safeties, they developed Johnson, Rapp, Fuller and Scott from 2017 through 2021.

 

[snackdaddy]

Every team has hits and misses in the draft. You have to look at the whole body of work. And not just draft picks. Trades and free agents are a part of that.

 

[Rams43]

Seems to me that you’re the one who bristles at opposing opinions.

Have a nice day.

You have a gift for abrasive sarcasm. THAT’s what makes me bristle.

And I’m not the only one who has noticed, trust me.

 

[AvengerRam]

You have a gift for abrasive sarcasm. THAT’s what makes me bristle.

And I’m not the only one who has noticed, trust me.

And you have a gift for fishing for clicks with the bait of Negative Nancy thread titles.

I'm quite certain I'm not the only one (here and elsewhere) who has noticed that.

To each their own, I guess.

Of course, I've given several reasoned and data-supported responses to your premise. Interesting that you don't respond to any of that. Guess its easier to just whine that I'm being too snarky for your taste.

If you'd actually like to discuss the Rams' track record of drafting DBs relative to other teams, I'd love to know how you'd respond to my previous posts (and those of others, who have likewise put the Rams' track record into perspective).

Your move.