Covid 19 thread

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thirteen28

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Are numbers likely to go down? Yes they are. Why? Because of the very precautions put in place that you have argued against and argued for lifting/relaxing. So what credibility do you bring to the table?

To be fair, I have not argued against all precautions, I have argued for a more targeted approach.

But let me ask you another question:

Japan has been hit by this very lightly, and they haven't locked everything down and put their economy on hold. Iceland hasn't either, even though they have COVID-19 cases in their country. And the places that have been hardest hit - especially Italy, have had major lockdowns.

I'm not saying I know the reason why, I most certainly do not. But doesn't that at least raise a question in your mind as to why there is such a disparity?
 

Classic Rams

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I don't know about the rest of you but where I live they haven't stocked walmart or the loan grocery store we have in almost a month. My wife and I are ok for probably a month if we really ration what we have but beyond that I don't know what is going to happen. Can't even find bottled water here. Glad I have a distiller....

Try instacart.

Go online and sign up. It's $9 a month unlimited times delivery from most stores, but I didn't see Walmart on the list. I got 3 items delivered from Costco last Sunday afternoon after placing the order that morning. I love their Salmon, both the pesto tray in the deli and the frozen box. No one else carries Salmon that I like. So I got those and the 40-pack of Kirlkland water. On my next run I'll reorder those again plus toilet paper and a few other things.
 

bluecoconuts

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So, are you suggesting that the NYC Dept. of Health is misreporting their numbers? Are you suggesting they are off by a factor of 2, 3, 5, 10 or some other number? They may be adjusted over time, but generally speaking the numbers that are a few days old and older have remained steady. So basically, you are trying to cast aspersions on the numbers as if they are meaningless. But you are not providing any support for that position.

I’m suggesting exactly what the disclaimer said, there is a delay in reporting and therefore recent numbers aren’t accurate. That doesn’t mean that there is some nefarious thing going on, I don’t know why you’re trying to ramp everything up to the extreme here, it just means there is a delay. The data is not complete, that’s it. That’s all it is. That’s why you don’t use it, because it’s not complete. Especially if you’re attempting to argue against the suggestions of the experts in the field.


You shouldn't listen to me over them. You should judge them based on the results though, weighing the actual numbers vs. their projections, and adjusting you assessment of them accordingly. Otherwise, you are just engaging in the classic appeal to authority fallacy.

This isn’t some appeal to authority fallacy bullshit, this isn’t a philosophy class, you’re actively spreading bad information and trying to push insane suggestions that put people needlessly at risk for some strange self gratification of attempting to look smarter than the experts. If even one person stumbles across this from some corner of the internet and sees me calling bullshit like this out, so they decide to do the right thing and listen to what the experts are saying, then I’ve done my job.

To be fair, I have not argued against all precautions, I have argued for a more targeted approach.

But let me ask you another question:

Japan has been hit by this very lightly, and they haven't locked everything down and put their economy on hold. Iceland hasn't either, even though they have COVID-19 cases in their country. And the places that have been hardest hit - especially Italy, have had major lockdowns.

I'm not saying I know the reason why, I most certainly do not. But doesn't that at least raise a question in your mind as to why there is such a disparity?

Japan is already starting to take additional steps as their containment strategy nears the breaking point. Chances are they will have to begin implementing more drastic measures soon as they’ve seen a recent uptick. They’re getting ready to close boarders and require mandatory quarantine for people entering the country. Iceland on the other hand has one of the lowest population densities in the world, with a population of just 341,000 people and a density of 3 people per square KM.
 

Akrasian

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Try instacart.

Go online and sign up. It's $9 a month unlimited times delivery from most stores, but I didn't see Walmart on the list. I got 3 items delivered from Costco last Sunday afternoon after placing the order that morning. I love their Salmon, both the pesto tray in the deli and the frozen box. No one else carries Salmon that I like. So I got those and the 40-pack of Kirlkland water. On my next run I'll reorder those again plus toilet paper and a few other things.

Walmart has their own pickup service. I used Instacart once, and then ordered pickup for Monday at Walmart, and I prefer Walmart. No charge for pickup. Scheduled time with them texting when it's ready. Lower prices anyway than the store I had for Instacart, no surcharge. I got lucky, they had just gotten a delivery of bananas. Instacart couldn't get me eggs either, but Walmart did. At my Walmart I think minimum is $30, which is nothing for a load of groceries. I will use them again.
 

Dieter the Brock

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I don't know about the rest of you but where I live they haven't stocked walmart or the loan grocery store we have in almost a month. My wife and I are ok for probably a month if we really ration what we have but beyond that I don't know what is going to happen. Can't even find bottled water here. Glad I have a distiller....

Our markets are stocked here in SB
If you need anything PM me and I can have it shipped to you
 

thirteen28

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I was going to go respond to your latest, but fuck it.

Since you need an expert to give you your opinion, why doesn't this expert's opinion count?

David L. Katz is a specialist in preventive medicine and public health, president of True Health Initiative and the founding director of Yale University’s Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center.


We routinely differentiate between two kinds of military action: the inevitable carnage and collateral damage of diffuse hostilities, and the precision of a “surgical strike,” methodically targeted to the sources of our particular peril. The latter, when executed well, minimizes resources and unintended consequences alike.

As we battle the coronavirus pandemic, and heads of state declare that we are “at war” with this contagion, the same dichotomy applies. This can be open war, with all the fallout that portends, or it could be something more surgical. The United States and much of the world so far have gone in for the former. I write now with a sense of urgency to make sure we consider the surgical approach, while there is still time.

Outbreaks tend to be isolated when pathogens move through water or food, and of greater scope when they travel by widespread vectors like fleas, mosquitoes or the air itself. Like the coronavirus pandemic, the infamous flu pandemic of 1918 was caused by viral particles transmitted by coughing and sneezing. Pandemics occur when an entire population is vulnerable — that is, not immune — to a given pathogen capable of efficiently spreading itself.

Immunity occurs when our immune system has developed antibodies against a germ, either naturally or as a result of a vaccine, and is fully prepared should exposure recur. The immune system response is so robust that the invading germ is eradicated before symptomatic disease can develop.

Importantly, that robust immune response also prevents transmission. If a germ can’t secure its hold on your body, your body no longer serves as a vector to send it forward to the next potential host. This is true even if that next person is not yet immune. When enough of us represent such “dead ends” for viral transmission, spread through the population is blunted, and eventually terminated. This is called herd immunity.

What we know so far about the coronavirus makes it a unique case for the potential application of a “herd immunity” approach, a strategy viewed as a desirable side effect in the Netherlands, and briefly considered in the United Kingdom.

The data from South Korea, where tracking the coronavirus has been by far the best to date, indicate that as much as 99 percent of active cases in the general population are “mild” and do not require specific medical treatment. The small percentage of cases that do require such services are highly concentrated among those age 60 and older, and further so the older people are. Other things being equal, those over age 70 appear at three times the mortality risk as those age 60 to 69, and those over age 80 at nearly twice the mortality risk of those age 70 to 79.

These conclusions are corroborated by the data from Wuhan, China, which show a higher death rate, but an almost identical distribution. The higher death rate in China may be real, but is perhaps a result of less widespread testing. South Korea promptly, and uniquely, started testing the apparently healthy population at large, finding the mild and asymptomatic cases of Covid-19 other countries are overlooking. The experience of the Diamond Princess cruise ship, which houses a contained, older population, proves the point. The death rate among that insular and uniformly exposed population is roughly 1 percent.

We have, to date, fewer than 200 deaths from the coronavirus in the United States — a small data set from which to draw big conclusions. Still, it is entirely aligned with the data from other countries. The deaths have been mainly clustered among the elderly, those with significant chronic illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease, and those in both groups.

This is not true of infectious scourges such as influenza. The flu hits the elderly and chronically ill hard, too, but it also kills children. Trying to create herd immunity among those most likely to recover from infection while also isolating the young and the old is daunting, to say the least. How does one allow exposure and immunity to develop in parents, without exposing their young children?

The clustering of complications and death from Covid-19 among the elderly and chronically ill, but not children (there have been only very rare deaths in children), suggests that we could achieve the crucial goals of social distancing — saving lives and not overwhelming our medical system — by preferentially protecting the medically frail and those over age 60, and in particular those over 70 and 80, from exposure.

Why does this matter?

I am deeply concerned that the social, economic and public health consequences of this near total meltdown of normal life — schools and businesses closed, gatherings banned — will be long lasting and calamitous, possibly graver than the direct toll of the virus itself. The stock market will bounce back in time, but many businesses never will. The unemployment, impoverishment and despair likely to result will be public health scourges of the first order.

Worse, I fear our efforts will do little to contain the virus, because we have a resource-constrained, fragmented, perennially underfunded public health system. Distributing such limited resources so widely, so shallowly and so haphazardly is a formula for failure. How certain are you of the best ways to protect your most vulnerable loved ones? How readily can you get tested?

We have already failed to respond as decisively as China or South Korea, and lack the means to respond like Singapore. We are following in Italy’s wake, at risk of seeing our medical system overwhelmed twice: First when people rush to get tested for the coronavirus, and again when the especially vulnerable succumb to severe infection and require hospital beds.

Yes, in more and more places we are limiting gatherings uniformly, a tactic I call “horizontal interdiction” — when containment policies are applied to the entire population without consideration of their risk for severe infection.

But as the work force is laid off en masse (our family has one adult child home for that reason already), and colleges close (we have another two young adults back home for this reason), young people of indeterminate infectious status are being sent home to huddle with their families nationwide. And because we lack widespread testing, they may be carrying the virus and transmitting it to their 50-something parents, and 70- or 80-something grandparents. If there are any clear guidelines for behavior within families — what I call “vertical interdiction” — I have not seen them.

Such is the collateral damage of this diffuse form of warfare, aimed at “flattening” the epidemic curve generally rather than preferentially protecting the especially vulnerable. I believe we may be ineffectively fighting the contagion even as we are causing economic collapse.

There is another and much overlooked liability in this approach. If we succeed in slowing the spread of coronavirus from torrent to trickle, then when does the society-wide disruption end? When will it be safe for healthy children and younger teachers to return to school, much less older teachers and teachers with chronic illnesses? When will it be safe for the work force to repopulate the workplace, given that some are in the at-risk group for severe infection?

When would it be safe to visit loved ones in nursing homes or hospitals? When once again might grandparents pick up their grandchildren?

There are many possible answers, but the most likely one is: We just don’t know. We could wait until there’s an effective treatment, a vaccine or transmission rates fall to undetectable levels. But what if those are a year or more away? Then we suffer the full extent of societal disruption the virus might cause for all those months. The costs, not just in money, are staggering to contemplate.

So what is the alternative? Well, we could focus our resources on testing and protecting, in every way possible, all those people the data indicate are especially vulnerable to severe infection: the elderly, people with chronic diseases and the immunologically compromised. Those that test positive could be the first to receive the first approved antivirals. The majority, testing negative, could benefit from every resource we have to shield them from exposure.

To be sure, while mortality is highly concentrated in a select groups, it does not stop there. There are poignant, heart-rending tales of severe infection and death from Covid-19 in younger people for reasons we do not know. If we found over time that younger people were also especially vulnerable to the virus, we could expand the at-risk category and extend protections to them.

We have already identified many of the especially vulnerable. A detailed list of criteria could be generated by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, updated daily and circulated widely to health professionals and the public alike. The at-risk population is already subject to the protections of our current policies: social distancing, medical attention for fever or cough. But there are several major problems with subsuming the especially vulnerable within the policies now applied to all.
First, the medical system is being overwhelmed by those in the lower-risk group seeking its resources, limiting its capacity to direct them to those at greatest need. Second, health professionals are burdened not just with work demands, but also with family demands as schools, colleges and businesses are shuttered. Third, sending everyone home to huddle together increases mingling across generations that will expose the most vulnerable.

As the virus is already circulating widely in the United States, with many cases going undetected, this is like sending innumerable lit matches into small patches of tinder. Right now, it is harder, not easier, to keep the especially vulnerable isolated from all others — including members of their own families — who may have been exposed to the virus.

If we were to focus on the especially vulnerable, there would be resources to keep them at home, provide them with needed services and coronavirus testing, and direct our medical system to their early care. I would favor proactive rather than reactive testing in this group, and early use of the most promising anti-viral drugs. This cannot be done under current policies, as we spread our relatively few test kits across the expanse of a whole population, made all the more anxious because society has shut down.

This focus on a much smaller portion of the population would allow most of society to return to life as usual and perhaps prevent vast segments of the economy from collapsing. Healthy children could return to school and healthy adults go back to their jobs. Theaters and restaurants could reopen, though we might be wise to avoid very large social gatherings like stadium sporting events and concerts.

So long as we were protecting the truly vulnerable, a sense of calm could be restored to society. Just as important, society as a whole could develop natural herd immunity to the virus. The vast majority of people would develop mild coronavirus infections, while medical resources could focus on those who fell critically ill. Once the wider population had been exposed and, if infected, had recovered and gained natural immunity, the risk to the most vulnerable would fall dramatically.

A pivot right now from trying to protect all people to focusing on the most vulnerable remains entirely plausible. With each passing day, however, it becomes more difficult. The path we are on may well lead to uncontained viral contagion and monumental collateral damage to our society and economy. A more surgical approach is what we need.
 

XXXIVwin

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I was going to go respond to your latest, but fuck it.

Since you need an expert to give you your opinion, why doesn't this expert's opinion count?



Because Katz is a nutritionist, not an epidemiologist, and a bunch of Yale epidemiologists wrote a letter in response saying that Katz had his head up his ass.

Try again.
 

thirteen28

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Because Katz is a nutritionist, not an epidemiologist, and a bunch of Yale epidemiologists wrote a letter in response saying that Katz had his head up his ass.

Try again.

A) I thought my posts were a pain to read. So why are you reading them?
B) He has an MD, he's still been through medical school and knows a hell of a lot more about the subject than you or I.
C) Neil Ferguson is an epidemiologist, and his projection of 2.2 million dead in the US and 500,000 dead in the UK from this virus has formed the basis for most of our public response. And yet ...

 

thirteen28

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He made his reversal only *two* days after the UK went into lockdown. I've been told repeatedly, by the experts, that it takes *fourteen* days to assess the effectiveness of a lockdown. But the guy who predicted 2.2 million US deaths and 500,000 UK deaths only needs two days to drop his prediction by an order of magnitude.

Additionally, he says the virus is slightly *more* transmissible but he is unchanged in his assessment of lethality - which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever with such a huge downgrade of his initial prediction regarding the number of deaths projected to occur.

But he's an expert, so let's ignore those contradictions ... right.
 

Akrasian

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He made his reversal only *two* days after the UK went into lockdown. I've been told repeatedly, by the experts, that it takes *fourteen* days to assess the effectiveness of a lockdown. But the guy who predicted 2.2 million US deaths and 500,000 UK deaths only needs two days to drop his prediction by an order of magnitude.

Sigh. You DO realize there is some data on the effectiveness of lockdown, right? The UK (and now the US) are not the only countries who have gone into lockdown. So the very fact that the UK had finally gone into lockdown would provide significant reason to reduce his expectations on transmission and deaths. You are seemingly pretending that the UK's transmission rates would be utterly unlike anywhere else in the world, which - frankly - is insane. Yes, there can be fluctuations - but everybody but you recognize that these predictions are not perfect - but better than the fantasies of some that there will be a miracle cure and we just don't need to worry about Covid-19.

His comments indicate that there is a real problem still - just that the policies that the UK put into place will help a lot. And he knows that because other countries that put social isolation into place also had significant drops in transmission.

Ultimately, until there is a safe vaccine that works (which virtually always takes time) we won't be out of the woods. But social isolation seems to be the best plan anybody has. The fantasy that we can ignore social isolation to save the economy is silly, since massive sickness will cause massive economic damage also.

Long term effects in the US is I expect a large number of employees will be working from home permanently. Not just for social safety - but because many businesses will find that to be more cost effective. Obviously not all employees will work from home, but far more than were prior to Covid-19.
 

12intheBox

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He made his reversal only *two* days after the UK went into lockdown. I've been told repeatedly, by the experts, that it takes *fourteen* days to assess the effectiveness of a lockdown. But the guy who predicted 2.2 million US deaths and 500,000 UK deaths only needs two days to drop his prediction by an order of magnitude.

Additionally, he says the virus is slightly *more* transmissible but he is unchanged in his assessment of lethality - which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever with such a huge downgrade of his initial prediction regarding the number of deaths projected to occur.

But he's an expert, so let's ignore those contradictions ... right.

I’m confused - his opinion is or is not worth listening to?
 

XXXIVwin

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A) I thought my posts were a pain to read. So why are you reading them?
B) He has an MD, he's still been through medical school and knows a hell of a lot more about the subject than you or I.
C) Neil Ferguson is an epidemiologist, and his projection of 2.2 million dead in the US and 500,000 dead in the UK from this virus has formed the basis for most of our public response. And yet ...

Did you even read Ferguson’s clarification (provided by 12inthebox, above?)

There is no “contradiction.”

Ferguson and Fauci are both saying essentially the same thing (unless you think Fauci is not to be trusted either...?)

Both Fauci and Ferguson have said that with ZERO intervention, death toll in USA could reach as high as 2.2 or 2.4 million.

But WITH concerted social distancing efforts, their models predict (as you would say) “an order of magnitude” fewer deaths. Fauci said that between 100k and 240k was not an unreasonable guess, but he was hoping for fewer than 100k.

There aren’t any “contradictions” in these guesstimates. Without social distancing, models predict millions of deaths, but WITH sustained distancing, the models predict far, far fewer— hundreds of thousands fewer deaths in USA alone. Honestly don’t know what you find confusing or contradictory about this.

As for “lethality”, Ferguson says his views remain unchanged. “Lethality” refers to the percentage of people who die after becoming infected. Obviously, if many fewer people overall become infected, many fewer people overall will die. But Ferguson says his views on “lethality”— the PERCENTAGE of deaths per infection— are still the same. Again, not “contradictory”, nor hard to understand.

The argument that “epidemiologists don’t know what they’re talking about, I’m a free thinker and I know better than they do” doesn’t seem to be going so well.
 
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ozarkram

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Missouri's governor cant seem to decide whether he wants to eat a bowl of corn flakes or wind his watch. So individual towns and cities are locking themselves down. There are wide spread shortages of milk,eggs,rice,beans,noodles,TP,PT,bread etc. Rural Missouri residents are taking the typical Missouri attitude of nobody is gonna tell me what to do. I expect an explosion of this stuff in rural America next and soon. JMO. I have too be out in it. If it was up to me I would stay home.
 

CeeZar

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Missouri's governor cant seem to decide whether he wants to eat a bowl of corn flakes or wind his watch. So individual towns and cities are locking themselves down. There are wide spread shortages of milk,eggs,rice,beans,noodles,TP,PT,bread etc. Rural Missouri residents are taking the typical Missouri attitude of nobody is gonna tell me what to do. I expect an explosion of this stuff in rural America next and soon. JMO. I have too be out in it. If it was up to me I would stay home.

I don't know how it is down there, but the markets are stocked up in suburban St. Louis. I was at the grocer yesterday and the shelves were full. The deli and meat counters were shut down and I didn't even go down the TP isle to see. But produce was stocked and the other shelves were all full.

I suspect that the rural areas will remain slow to see a spread. Population density is a big deal. If you are seriously worried, start wearing a face mask - even a home made one will help. Plenty of instructions on the internet to make your own if you can't buy them. Be very diligent with hand washing and especially not touching you nose and eyes. Stop shaking hands if you haven't already.
 
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