Alex Mack Anyone?

[NateDawg122]

Center is just as much on that list with Barnes as it is with Wis.

The Jaguars have tons of cap room. There's a reason they haven't re-signed him.

1. You're assuming he's interested in signing back with them.
2. You can't keep going back and forth here. On one hand you say you don't want to pay the big bucks to get him and on the other you insinuate the Jaguars don't think he's good enough to resign. Either he's a good player and teams value him as such or he's not that good and he won't cost much money to get in the first place. You can't have it both ways.

 

[fearsomefour]

1. You're assuming he's interested in signing back with them.
2. You can't keep going back and forth here. On one hand you say you don't want to pay the big bucks to get him and on the other you insinuate the Jaguars don't think he's good enough to resign. Either he's a good player and teams value him as such or he's not that good and he won't cost much money to get in the first place. You can't have it both ways.

He wanted big money he did not get last year.
He ended up signing for one year and $2.5M last year. If Barnes could be had for that and there is not a big difference in the level of play, no reason to throw money at him.

 

[NateDawg122]

He wanted big money he did not get last year.
He ended up signing for one year and $2.5M last year. If Barnes could be had for that and there is not a big difference in the level of play, no reason to throw money at him.

I don't think Barnes is nearly as good as Wis but that's my opinion.

 

[jrry32]

1. You're assuming he's interested in signing back with them.
2. You can't keep going back and forth here. On one hand you say you don't want to pay the big bucks to get him and on the other you insinuate the Jaguars don't think he's good enough to resign. Either he's a good player and teams value him as such or he's not that good and he won't cost much money to get in the first place. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not having it both ways. I made my stance clear in my post. And it directly addresses this point:

I don't really get all the love with Wisniewski. He was average at best in Oakland and not any better in Jacksonville. I'd rather stick with Barnes at half the price. He knows the system and he has the continuity factor on his side. Then draft and develop a Center behind him.

2015 Contracts
Stefen Wisniewski - 1 year $2.5 million
Tim Barnes - 1 year $710,000

I'm assuming Barnes's contract goes up into the $1 million to $1.5 million range per year. I'm assuming Wisniewski's contract stays about the same. I'd rather have Tim Barnes at half the price.

 

[NateDawg122]

I'm not having it both ways. I made my stance clear in my post. And it directly addresses this point:


2015 Contracts
Stefen Wisniewski - 1 year $2.5 million
Tim Barnes - 1 year $710,000

I'm assuming Barnes's contract goes up into the $1 million to $1.5 million range per year. I'm assuming Wisniewski's contract stays about the same. I'd rather have Tim Barnes at half the price.

When half the price means a difference of about $1 million it isn't like we're breaking the bank. It's not like Wis would cost $8 mil and Barnes $4 mil with a huge gap in between. When you say half the price it sounds like a tremendous gap in pay, but it isn't. I think it's worth the price but that's just me. If you don't think he's worth it then that's fine.

 

[fearsomefour]

I don't think Barnes is nearly as good as Wis but that's my opinion.

You may be right.
I liked Wiz two years ago and didn't really see him much last year.
I was surprised there was not more of a market for him last year.

 

[WvuIN02]

You don't develop a guy to watch him leave.

You absolutely have to do this sometimes. You have to if you draft and develop talent well because you simply cannot keep everyone under contract.

Look at teams that perennially are at the top. They have plenty of guys who they let walk who they developed, because they know they can replace them and develop talent. Mike Wallace joined Jerry Rice and Randy Moss as the only receivers to put up the yards and touchdowns he did to begin his career, and everyone gasped when the Steelers let him walk. We now know why, because they can pay the guys they see as irreplaceable and continue to develop stud WRs in the mid-late rounds.

The Rams are getting to this point where they have an embarrassment of riches on defense and cant keep everyone on a big contract. It's an inevitable part of hitting on talent and having that talent be successful, sometimes they are gonna go get a big payday somewhere else.

 

[jrry32]

When half the price means a difference of about $1 million it isn't like we're breaking the bank. It's not like Wis would cost $8 mil and Barnes $4 mil with a huge gap in between. When you say half the price it sounds like a tremendous gap in pay, but it isn't. I think it's worth the price but that's just me. If you don't think he's worth it then that's fine.

My issue is that every million counts. Wis is a slight upgrade in terms of talent but that's negated by Barnes's continuity and chemistry. We all know how frustrating it can be watching an OL before they gel. If we bring back Barnes, that means we have all 5 starters back. Which means we have chemistry and continuity. We have the same Center that knows our scheme and knows the guys around him in the middle. That's valuable. So yeah, I think that $1 million to $1.5 million is better spent elsewhere when we won't see any real benefit.

Even if we sign Wis, we still need to address the Center position in the draft this year or next.

 

[jrry32]

You absolutely have to do this sometimes. You have to if you draft and develop talent well because you simply cannot keep everyone under contract.

Look at teams that perennially are at the top. They have plenty of guys who they let walk who they developed, because they know they can replace them and develop talent. Mike Wallace joined Jerry Rice and Randy Moss as the only receivers to put up the yards and touchdowns he did to begin his career, and everyone gasped when the Steelers let him walk. We now know why, because they can pay the guys they see as irreplaceable and continue to develop stud WRs in the mid-late rounds.

The Rams are getting to this point where they have an embarrassment of riches on defense and cant keep everyone on a big contract. It's an inevitable part of hitting on talent and having that talent be successful, sometimes they are gonna go get a big payday somewhere else.

Rams haven't gotten to that point yet...likely because we aren't paying a QB $20 million a year. Once we find our franchise guy and have to pay him, that'll likely change.

 

[VegasRam]

I'd like to see the guaranteed portion of that $24M/3 year deal. There is no fucking way a 30 year old center gets that kind of money - no way period.
I will bump this post after free agency.

 

[NateDawg122]

My issue is that every million counts. Wis is a slight upgrade in terms of talent but that's negated by Barnes's continuity and chemistry. We all know how frustrating it can be watching an OL before they gel. If we bring back Barnes, that means we have all 5 starters back. Which means we have chemistry and continuity. We have the same Center that knows our scheme and knows the guys around him in the middle. That's valuable. So yeah, I think that $1 million to $1.5 million is better spent elsewhere when we won't see any real benefit.

Even if we sign Wis, we still need to address the Center position in the draft this year or next.

Chemistry?? He barely played with the same 4 guys all season. Havenstein was hurt, Saffold went down with the shoulder, Brown broke his leg, etc. I don't see how that negates Wisniewski's superior talent.

 

[StealYoGurley]

So we are just going to forget about the Scott wells and Jason Brown sagas? Mack has had some injury issues lately, he is aging, and hasn't played nearly as well. We got rid of Chris Long for those same reasons. He is already the 4th highest paid center in the league making 8.4 mil a year and I wouldn't even pay him at that at this stage in his career.

Its a deep draft for centers, we have already committed to a youth movement on the O-line, might as well add the final young cog through the draft instead of a guy you will pay 8+ million well past his prime when the rest of the line is just hitting their prime.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Hudson is the Center they should have gone after. He played well in Oakland. I don't like Mack's age but, if he was cheap enough I would give him a go. His veteran leadership could help the line and coming home could invigorate him. But, I don't expect that he will come cheap enough, or that Fisher will be excited about his age. If they keep Saffold then he and Reynolds can be the veteranleaders of the Oline

 

[jrry32]

Chemistry?? He barely played with the same 4 guys all season. Havenstein was hurt, Saffold went down with the shoulder, Brown broke his leg, etc. I don't see how that negates Wisniewski's superior talent.

Jamon Brown started 9 games. Havenstein started 13 games. Wichmann started 7 games. Robinson started 16 games. Reynolds started 11 games. Tim Barnes started all 16 games. Which means he played beside each and every one of those guys for a number of games and practiced with them.

Yes, chemistry. It's a big deal. OLs take time to gel. We have the rare opportunity to return all 5 starters...and actually have the potential to have a good unit with the way Havenstein, Wichmann, and Reynolds played over the second half of the season and Robinson's and Brown's ability to improve.(not to mention Robinson's improved performance over the final few games)

Barnes brings chemistry and continuity to the unit at arguably the most important spot. That's valuable. Very valuable.

 

[AllGasNoBrakes]

Jamon Brown started 9 games. Havenstein started 13 games. Wichmann started 7 games. Robinson started 16 games. Reynolds started 11 games. Tim Barnes started all 16 games. Which means he played beside each and every one of those guys for a number of games and practiced with them.

Yes, chemistry. It's a big deal. OLs take time to gel. We have the rare opportunity to return all 5 starters...and actually have the potential to have a good unit with the way Havenstein, Wichmann, and Reynolds played over the second half of the season and Robinson's and Brown's ability to improve.(not to mention Robinson's improved performance over the final few games)

Barnes brings chemistry and continuity to the unit at arguably the most important spot. That's valuable. Very valuable.

I get your point but you're exaggerating the 10 or so games that Barnes played with these guys. In a year's time, Wis will have just as much experience as Barnes AND the superior ability in C play. The position is locked down for the next couple years and you can spend this year's draft pick on WR, QB, TE or DE.

And like you said, we're returning the rest of our starters meaning it's not like replacing our "1 year of starter experience" C with a 5 year veteran is going to cost the catastrophic end of our o line's chemistry.

EDIT: cause not cost

 

[jrry32]

I get your point but you're exaggerating the 10 or so games that Barnes played with these guys. In a year's time, Wis will have just as much experience as Barnes AND the superior ability in C play. The position is locked down for the next couple years and you can spend this year's draft pick on WR, QB, TE or DE.

And like you said, we're returning the rest of our starters meaning it's not like replacing our "1 year of starter experience" C with a 5 year veteran is going to cost the catastrophic end of our o line's chemistry.

EDIT: cause not cost

I'm not much interested in waiting for a year. We have the opportunity to have an OL that has gelled from day 1. I don't think it's worth having to deal with the OL gelling again because we decided to add an average Center instead of a mediocre Center. If we were talking about Rodney Hudson, this would be a different story. But Wis is average. Having him "lock down" the Center position for the next couple of years only means that we aren't trying to do better.

Give me Barnes + a draft pick for the same price as Wis. We get our continuity and we get to develop a player who hopefully is better than both Barnes and Wis.

If I'm going to pursue free agents, it's because they make the Rams better. With Wis, the team is stuck in neutral.

I don't get the love affair for an average at best player. Especially when Barnes gave the team steady, solid play. If Wisniewski is an upgrade, it's slight. And we lose out on all the continuity Barnes offers. Which I will, again, reiterate is important. An OL's success is based on the sum of its parts. It's a lot like a defense. The more guys have played together, the better the unit will be.

 

[NateDawg122]

I'm not much interested in waiting for a year.

Says the guy who wants to draft a Center in the later rounds to bring up behind Barnes. The continuity stuff isn't as applicable because Barnes was only the starter for one year in which a lot of the surrounding cast changed. He's also not a starting caliber C in the NFL.

 

[AllGasNoBrakes]

I'm not much interested in waiting for a year. We have the opportunity to have an OL that has gelled from day 1. I don't think it's worth having to deal with the OL gelling again because we decided to add an average Center instead of a mediocre Center. If we were talking about Rodney Hudson, this would be a different story. But Wis is average. Having him "lock down" the Center position for the next couple of years only means that we aren't trying to do better.

Give me Barnes + a draft pick for the same price as Wis. We get our continuity and we get to develop a player who hopefully is better than both Barnes and Wis.

If I'm going to pursue free agents, it's because they make the Rams better. With Wis, the team is stuck in neutral.

I don't get the love affair for an average at best player. Especially when Barnes gave the team steady, solid play. If Wisniewski is an upgrade, it's slight. And we lose out on all the continuity Barnes offers. Which I will, again, reiterate is important. An OL's success is based on the sum of its parts. It's a lot like a defense. The more guys have played together, the better the unit will be.

But we DON'T have the opportunity to "have an OL that has gelled from day 1". We had three starters miss time from injury and guys like Reynolds playing 3 different positions. That's hardly allowing the oline to gel. Sure we can have familiarity but don't mistake it for actual experience or extended chemistry.

With that being said, bringing an improvement for the difference of 1 or 2 million dollars seems like bettering the team NOW. So, from my perspective having him lock down the center position means we ARE trying to do better -- starting now.

I think you're also underrating what someone like Wis would bring to the table. Physically, I think he brings much more than you're stating he does and the gap between him and Barnes is sizeable. But aside from that, he brings MUCH NEEDED veteran, starting experience at a position where experience significantly matters. Not to mention we're counting on two rookies (one of whom is coming back from a season ending injury) and a slow-learning, young LT to start. Adding another experienced player on the line can help mitigate some of the growing pains these young linemen will experience.

An upgrade is an upgrade and I think team should seriously consider ones that are available. With guys like Mack and Wis making their way to the market the Rams would be foolish not to take a look.

 

[WvuIN02]

Rams haven't gotten to that point yet...likely because we aren't paying a QB $20 million a year. Once we find our franchise guy and have to pay him, that'll likely change.

Yea I said getting.

And even without a QB yet, you still have guys like Donald and Gurley who in a few years are going to be commanding top dollar.

 

[jrry32]

Says the guy who wants to draft a Center in the later rounds to bring up behind Barnes. The continuity stuff isn't as applicable because Barnes was only the starter for one year in which a lot of the surrounding cast changed. He's also not a starting caliber C in the NFL.

Yea. That's the best of both worlds. We get continuity and a better talent to develop.

The continuity stuff is definitely applicable. Barnes started all 16 games last year and each of the other 4 OLs started games last year.

Barnes is a starting caliber C. That was proven in 2015.

But we DON'T have the opportunity to "have an OL that has gelled from day 1". We had three starters miss time from injury and guys like Reynolds playing 3 different positions. That's hardly allowing the oline to gel. Sure we can have familiarity but don't mistake it for actual experience or extended chemistry.

With that being said, bringing an improvement for the difference of 1 or 2 million dollars seems like bettering the team NOW. So, from my perspective having him lock down the center position means we ARE trying to do better -- starting now.

I think you're also underrating what someone like Wis would bring to the table. Physically, I think he brings much more than you're stating he does and the gap between him and Barnes is sizeable. But aside from that, he brings MUCH NEEDED veteran, starting experience at a position where experience significantly matters. Not to mention we're counting on two rookies (one of whom is coming back from a season ending injury) and a slow-learning, young LT to start. Adding another experienced player on the line can help mitigate some of the growing pains these young linemen will experience.

An upgrade is an upgrade and I think team should seriously consider ones that are available. With guys like Mack and Wis making their way to the market the Rams would be foolish not to take a look.

Bringing in little to no improvement for $1 million to $2 million more does nothing for me.

And yes, we do have an opportunity for an OL that has gelled from day 1. Each of these guys were on the team last year and started games. That's actual experience, that's familiarity, and as we saw near the end of last year, that's chemistry. Jamon Brown is the only guy that wasn't really out there over the second half of last year but he still started the first 9 games next to Barnes.

I'm not underrating what someone like Wisniewski brings to the board. If anything, the market told us last year what NFL teams think of him. What he brings to the board got severely overrated last year (and I was one of the people that fell into that trap). Seems like it's happening again. Wisniewski's name value is higher than his actual value to NFL teams.

I'm sure the Rams will take a look. They took a look at Wisniewski last year and then left him on the market. Anyways, I've said my piece. Moving on.