2023 Defense through 12 Games vs 2022 first 12 games

[JimY53]

Morris is doing great, considering the youth on the defense. I’d also credit the assistants.

But one factor that is different is than last year is the Rams had Ramsey, AShawn, Floyd and Wagner. Wagner was a big piece added. So how is it apples to apples with so many different parts?

1. Could it be that some of those veterans were worn down from the long season the year before, after playing all the way to the Super Bowl?

2. Or maybe some of those players were not playing as hard since they won a Super Bowl? This could bring about Donald’s comment to McVay to make sure that they draft players that care.

3. Or was the defense too old?

4. Maybe some of the new assistant coaching hires are helping more than last years staff. Or maybe it’s McVay’s refreshed look on how he wants he and his staff to coach.

It’s not a black and white comparison. There could be many factors that contribute to the difference.

Whatever it is, they are doing a great job.

or ... as PARAM said ... the defense was better last year with a far worse offense. Far worse, online injuries, Kupp injured and so on. That is not to blame Mcvay but the defense is getting a lot more help from the offense this year and the numbers are slightly worse this year--- this year's offense with last year's games 1-12 (or 1-11, whatever) would have been even better...it was a playoff defense until Donald went down and the offense got even worse.

It still begs the question --- is there enough of a difference to warrant hate turning to love? Or extreme criticism to praise?

Maybe less criticism of Morris last year, and maybe a but less praise this year is what fact support. I just don't think the difference is beg enough to go from "Fire Morris" to "I like this year's results so I will no longer say he is scared and stupid".

In football, there are never absolutes. And that is what is cool about it. It's a game so intertwined among units, schedule, and everything -- talent level, playing confidently and on and on. All stats are going to be skewed in some way.

I guess it's this: Morris was one coach in 2021 (hated) and another in 2021 playoffs (loved) to 2022 (hated) to 2023 (loved). It is absurd to think he was different in any of those phases. He's one person, the same person, the same coach, the same level of stones and smarts throughout.

It also helps when people have a better grasp of some basics of the defense.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

or ... as PARAM said ... the defense was better last year with a far worse offense. Far worse, online injuries, Kupp injured and so on. That is not to blame Mcvay but the defense is getting a lot more help from the offense this year and the numbers are slightly worse this year--- this year's offense with last year's games 1-12 (or 1-11, whatever) would have been even better...it was a playoff defense until Donald went down and the offense got even worse.

It still begs the question --- is there enough of a difference to warrant hate turning to love? Or extreme criticism to praise?

Maybe less criticism of Morris last year, and maybe a but less praise this year is what fact support. I just don't think the difference is beg enough to go from "Fire Morris" to "I like this year's results so I will no longer say he is scared and stupid".

In football, there are never absolutes. And that is what is cool about it. It's a game so intertwined among units, schedule, and everything -- talent level, playing confidently and on and on. All stats are going to be skewed in some way.

I guess it's this: Morris was one coach in 2021 (hated) and another in 2021 playoffs (loved) to 2022 (hated) to 2023 (loved). It is absurd to think he was different in any of those phases. He's one person, the same person, the same coach, the same level of stones and smarts throughout.

It also helps when people have a better grasp of some basics of the defense.

For the record, I was never overly critical of Raheem. But the ten yard cushions were very frustrating. Maybe that was to fit the personnel that he had. But I agree the offense could not stay on the field long enough last season.

 

[JimY53]

For the record, I was never overly critical of Raheem. But the ten yard cushions were very frustrating. Maybe that was to fit the personnel that he had. But I agree the offense could not stay on the field long enough last season.

I don't know what you thought. Maybe you fit into one of the three groups I defined (1, 2, 3) who are reasonable and honorable but have varying levels of praise/criticism - reactions that are civil. That had a fair take, either positive or negative.

I am trying to get to why some people went to the level of group 4 - that includes name-calling (lacks stones and smarts) by a small group of people. I think most people are not close

The depth of alignment is a fair discussion. Maybe there was a reason, maybe there wasn't. The key is does the use of off coverage mean that Raheem Morris is stupid and scared?

Almost all else is part of any football discussion. But a small group of people, who claim to know football, who suggest Morris lacked the knowledge to do any better. That he lacked the ability to call any other defense. Some have even suggested he did things one way in 2021 regular season, something different (scheme-wise) in 2021 playoffs than back to the back scheme in 2022 and then back to the good scheme in 2023 based on something others than it was his way of trying to win.

We can get into actual depths, the off one side (quarters) and press on the others (halves) and everything in between and I am willing to do that with anyone of good faith. There were reasons (reported by Jourdan) and Brett Alexander for it and (as an aside) it was exaggerated anyway. But discussion a top down, attack from the top coverage scheme can be had. But a non-starter is than an NFL coach (any NFL coach) is doing something for no reason or that he's stupid. And that is what a small group of people (I call group 4 in OP) that said those things.

Why some (group 4) seem to lack good faith is what I am getting at. Maybe they think they are acting with reason and good faith when they say Morris was dumb and scared but that take is pretty extreme.

 

[Ellard80]

The defense has a pretty tricky test coming up.

 

[Kupped]

The defense has a pretty tricky test coming up.

Oh.. they're probably going to get trucked. Bad matchup at a bad time.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I don't know what you thought. Maybe you fit into one of the three groups I defined (1, 2, 3) who are reasonable and honorable but have varying levels of praise/criticism - reactions that are civil. That had a fair take, either positive or negative.

I am trying to get to why some people went to the level of group 4 - that includes name-calling (lacks stones and smarts) by a small group of people. I think most people are not close

The depth of alignment is a fair discussion. Maybe there was a reason, maybe there wasn't. The key is does the use of off coverage mean that Raheem Morris is stupid and scared?

Almost all else is part of any football discussion. But a small group of people, who claim to know football, who suggest Morris lacked the knowledge to do any better. That he lacked the ability to call any other defense. Some have even suggested he did things one way in 2021 regular season, something different (scheme-wise) in 2021 playoffs than back to the back scheme in 2022 and then back to the good scheme in 2023 based on something others than it was his way of trying to win.

We can get into actual depths, the off one side (quarters) and press on the others (halves) and everything in between and I am willing to do that with anyone of good faith. There were reasons (reported by Jourdan) and Brett Alexander for it and (as an aside) it was exaggerated anyway. But discussion a top down, attack from the top coverage scheme can be had. But a non-starter is than an NFL coach (any NFL coach) is doing something for no reason or that he's stupid. And that is what a small group of people (I call group 4 in OP) that said those things.

Why some (group 4) seem to lack good faith is what I am getting at. Maybe they think they are acting with reason and good faith when they say Morris was dumb and scared but that take is pretty extreme.

Im not group four. But, a little criticism is fair imo. That’s what fans do. We even criticize McVay. It’s hard to take everything at face value and accept it was the best solution, if they are not winning games. But, that is the unknown that fans get to discuss.

What bothered many, imo is it looked like the Rams were going to the Tampa philosophy of bending but not breaking, full time. I think it’s fair that some may have suspected that Morris wasn’t so quick to stray from his roots. But just like players developing, coaches do too. It’s tough to expect everything to be smoothed out with a new hire right away. Sometimes there is a transition and sometimes it doesn’t work out at all. Plus, teams are rarely static. Raheem didn’t have all of the same players or even assistant coaches to work with.

Going from the having number 1 defense with Staley, to Morris first year was a bit disappointing. That’s bound to get reactions. Many fans are just not levelheaded during the season. They get crazy.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Oh.. they're probably going to get trucked. Bad matchup at a bad time.

Has the Ravens offense been that good? I thought the Rams defense has hung in against some good opponents this year, with the exception of Dallas.

My biggest concerns are the Ravens defense, and the East Coast trip in winter.

 

[Kupped]

Has the Ravens offense been that good? I thought the Rams defense has hung in against some good opponents this year, with the exception of Dallas.

My biggest concerns are the Ravens defense, and the East Coast trip in winter.

Yes.. the offense, especially of late, has been very good.

I’m adding that to your valid concerns… and them coming off a bye week.

Bad matchup.

 

[JimY53]

Im not group four. But, a little criticism is fair imo. That’s what fans do. We even criticize McVay. It’s hard to take everything at face value and accept it was the best solution, if they are not winning games. But, that is the unknown that fans get to discuss.

What bothered many, imo is it looked like the Rams were going to the Tampa philosophy of bending but not breaking, full time. I think it’s fair that some may have suspected that Morris wasn’t so quick to stray from his roots. But just like players developing, coaches do too. It’s tough to expect everything to be smoothed out with a new hire right away. Sometimes there is a transition and sometimes it doesn’t work out at all. Plus, teams are rarely static. Raheem didn’t have all of the same players or even assistant coaches to work with.

Going from the having number 1 defense with Staley, to Morris first year was a bit disappointing. That’s bound to get reactions. Many fans are just not levelheaded during the season. They get crazy.

agree you are not group four based on your responses
agree that a little criticism is fair

If you want to discuss the scheme --- that's fine. I can. That is a different discussion.

This discussion and I am trying to have is the LEVEL of hate based on the results and the praise this year based on the results. And those results that are fair are when Donald was paying.

I get that you and others didn't like how the defense looked. That's fair. Being frustrated is fair.

But the laser focus I was hoping for is this: It's clear there is no real difference in the RESULTS of the defense from the first 3/4 of 2022 to 2/4 of 2023. And there are mitigating things that have been brought up. Assuming ALL THAT IS TRUE (some are, perhaps some is not) then why are a lot of people happy with the results in 2023 (praise for Morris) and in 2022 (Fire Morris) when the RESULTS are basically the same (with said mitigating factors).

I think it is because group 4 (and some group 3 people as I've defined them--people can come up with different groups if they want) exaggerated how bad the "with Donald defense" was in 2022 and probably slightly overrating the results this year.

I think that could be due to how the defense "looks". Presnap alignments.

I think it is plausible that the biggest mitigating factor for the defense looking satisfactory this year, even to group 4 guys) is the offense being able to run the ball (good back, better and healthier o-line) and not putting the defense's back to the wall.

Essentially, I am calling out some people who think Morris is smart when the defense does well and stupid when it does not when he's either smart overall or stupid overall. He cannot he one thing in success and another in failure. I contend that is absurd.

(If you want to talk scheme and why Rams didn't run Tampa-2 or anything from his roots last year or this year or in 2021 I am willing to go into that with great detail, including video and photo evidence. I realize not everyone watches All-22, so if people are fair-minded and act in good faith, these are all good discussions. I have interjected quite a lot already starting with the basics. Basics such as terminology and also trying to get people on the same page as to what the NT does. Next we can do secondary but if things are all done at once we all get lost. But by all means, start a thread on scheme and I will post a lot of stuff on it concerning match quarters and six-man boxes, to the over and odd 3-4s we run to nickel packages (which are run most often).)

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

agree you are not group four based on your responses
agree that a little criticism is fair

If you want to discuss the scheme --- that's fine. I can. That is a different discussion.

This discussion and I am trying to have is the LEVEL of hate based on the results and the praise this year based on the results. And those results that are fair are when Donald was paying.

I get that you and others didn't like how the defense looked. That's fair. Being frustrated is fair.

But the laser focus I was hoping for is this: It's clear there is no real difference in the RESULTS of the defense from the first 3/4 of 2022 to 2/4 of 2023. And there are mitigating things that have been brought up. Assuming ALL THAT IS TRUE (some are, perhaps some is not) then why are a lot of people happy with the results in 2023 (praise for Morris) and in 2022 (Fire Morris) when the RESULTS are basically the same (with said mitigating factors).

I think it is because group 4 (and some group 3 people as I've defined them--people can come up with different groups if they want) exaggerated how bad the "with Donald defense" was in 2022 and probably slightly overrating the results this year.

I think that could be due to how the defense "looks". Presnap alignments.

I think it is plausible that the biggest mitigating factor for the defense looking satisfactory this year, even to group 4 guys) is the offense being able to run the ball (good back, better and healthier o-line) and not putting the defense's back to the wall.

Essentially, I am calling out some people who think Morris is smart when the defense does well and stupid when it does not when he's either smart overall or stupid overall. He cannot he one thing in success and another in failure. I contend that is absurd.

(If you want to talk scheme and why Rams didn't run Tampa-2 or anything from his roots last year or this year or in 2021 I am willing to go into that with great detail, including video and photo evidence. I realize not everyone watches All-22, so if people are fair-minded and act in good faith, these are all good discussions. I have interjected quite a lot already starting with the basics. Basics such as terminology and also trying to get people on the same page as to what the NT does. Next we can do secondary but if things are all done at once we all get lost. But by all means, start a thread on scheme and I will post a lot of stuff on it concerning match quarters and six-man boxes, to the over and odd 3-4s we run to nickel packages (which are run most often).)

I thought the Bobby Wagner/AD defense was much better than the results showed. They’d get a lot of quick outs and were on the sidelines. But then the offense went three and out. With a good offense, that defense would have been a top unit, but they can’t play 45 minutes of a 60 minute game. So I agree that the criticism was harsh and undue.

A big reason that Morris is getting more credit this year is because of the lack of experience with so many young players having big roles, yet they are still in every game for at least three quarters.

So, the low preseason expectations are making what Morris has accomplished appear to be more impressive. We were told to lower our expectations by the media. In reality the DBs have two vets in Witherspoon and JJ along with an intelligent former defensive play caller in Fuller, leading the rookies on the back end. They’ve got an athletic Ernest Jones who spent a year under Bobby Wagner’s wing and two draft revelations up front to pair with Aaron Donald. Was the defense really THAT much better two years ago? Minus Von Miller midseason and Eric Weddle late, the only big really difference is Ramsey.

 

[AZRams]

Last year the offense was one of worst in NFL. This year they can at least score points. Puka stepped in for gimpy Kupp, Stafford
mostly healthy. Offensive line is pretty good, RB is pretty good.

Defense was not perfect last year. It had bad games and cost wins but had good games. Offense affects the defense and there are times when the offense needed a first down to seal a win but would go 3 and out. Defense carries heavy burden last year.

The questions I posed were what are the results?
And are the differences do great that one year a few people wanted Morris fired and this year they
don't.

Mitigating factors such as a young group and a bad offensive aside. The Morris hate has been and always
was over the top and unreasonable and with a few people it was personal.

edited to correct a couple of typos

Hhhmmm...where have I heard that before?

 

[JimY53]

A big reason that Morris is getting more credit this year is because of the lack of experience

Understood, but again ... is it enough of a difference to warrant the verbiage the group 4 guys use?
Whatever differences it's the extremes that are interesting. To listen to the haters you'd think 2022
was a 30-32nd ranked defense and now they begrudgingly give some credit, likely for reasons you site,
but they talk like it's a top 10 this year.

My point is when Donald was healthy in 2022 and this year --- both are middle of the pack. But the hate I saw
was vicious and in extreme cases personal (Morris lacks smarts and stones type of stuff) and I don't see it now
when the defense is performing roughly the same.

But if I did the offense comparisons from 2022 you WOULD see a very bad offense compared to a good one this year.
Rams offense (injuries major culprit) was a bottom-five or close to that offense, even before the last 5 games.

It's the discrepancy that fascinates me i.e. defenses the same, hate one year, love and respect the next. I just would like
to seem them defend their position.

 

[JimY53]

Hhhmmm...where have I heard that before?

Maybe the same place you heard the conjunctional phrase right after it — "but had good games"

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Understood, but again ... is it enough of a difference to warrant the verbiage the group 4 guys use?
Whatever differences it's the extremes that are interesting. To listen to the haters you'd think 2022
was a 30-32nd ranked defense and now they begrudgingly give some credit, likely for reasons you site,
but they talk like it's a top 10 this year.

My point is when Donald was healthy in 2022 and this year --- both are middle of the pack. But the hate I saw
was vicious and in extreme cases personal (Morris lacks smarts and stones type of stuff) and I don't see it now
when the defense is performing roughly the same.

But if I did the offense comparisons from 2022 you WOULD see a very bad offense compared to a good one this year.
Rams offense (injuries major culprit) was a bottom-five or close to that offense, even before the last 5 games.

It's the discrepancy that fascinates me i.e. defenses the same, hate one year, love and respect the next. I just would like
to seem them defend their position.

I think it all comes down to preseason expectations

 

[Angry Ram]

I think ppl were spoiled with the #1 ranked D in 2020. Which is impossible to repeat. So their expectations were already high, then Raheem comes along with a failed HC stigma and never really hitting with fans.

Raheem seems to be a pretty well respected guy and considered a good coach in the NFL world. Which is why he still has a job. On a staff with a pretty good HC I would say. In a pretty well run org.

 

[AZRams]

Maybe the same place you heard the conjunctional phrase right after it — "but had good games"

Easy...

I've been ripped on multiple occasions for specifically suggesting that the 2022 Defense lost games. I don't dispute the second part of the statement.

Frankly, I was kinda happy to find someone who at least agreed with me even a tiny bit.

 

[JimY53]

I think it all comes down to preseason expectations

The thing is that may be true for you and others.
But here is the problem ... the group I am talking about truly thinks he's not a smart/decent (choose whatever word) coach and said so last year (and before, even) but now they, what? Still think he's not a smart or good coach but is at least, exceeding expectations so it's okay?

Or if he's smart now (they've changed their minds), how did he get good/smart?

I am challenging the inconsistent and absurd contentions of that group 4. Either he'd good, average, or bad. He cannot be all three.
A coach can't be bad (reg season 2021), decent (2021 playoffs) then bad (2022) then decent (2023).

 

[JimY53]

Easy...

I've been ripped on multiple occasions for specifically suggesting that the 2022 Defense lost games. I don't dispute the second part of the statement.

Frankly, I was kinda happy to find someone who at least agreed with me even a tiny bit.

I don't know your history, but to (A) say Rams defense didn't have bad games is, IMO, wrong. It's also wrong to say (B) they didn't have good games.

However, (C) 2022 Rams offense lost more games than the defense.

I think A, B and C are all accurate.

If someone thinks A, but not B and C, it'd be dubious IMO. Facts don't show that.

 

[Kupped]

I don't know your history, but to (A) say Rams defense didn't have bad games is, IMO, wrong. It's also wrong to say (B) they didn't have good games.

However, (C) 2022 Rams offense lost more games than the defense.

I think A, B and C are all accurate.

If someone thinks A, but not B and C, it'd be dubious IMO. Facts don't show that.

One of the big points of contention on here is the Tampa game last year.
Obviously an ugly last possession on D.
But, my argument, was that loss was much more on the offense than the defense.

People strongly disagree.

 

[JimY53]

One of the big points of contention on here is the Tampa game last year.
Obviously an ugly last possession on D.
But, my argument, was that loss was much more on the offense than the defense.

People strongly disagree.

My take is blame lies with both. Would have been nice for the offense to get one first dowh. Also would have been nice
for the defense to get a stop.

What if it's a 50-50 thing and not an 80-20 either way? I don't know the answer but the unknown is if playing tight and blitzing would have helped or hurt? Or if McVay and the offense were so inept that asking them to get one first down was too much to ask.

I just wonder why it cannot be a failure - failures that happen in the NFL when you face the goat -- that does not just simply assume Morris is incompetent. Or scared or stupid.

It is one thing to think a coach runs a defense you don't like. It's another to think we know better, especially when some of the attackers on the man are simply inaccurate. Small case in point--not know what the NT does in this scheme. If you don't know that, which is right in front of our faces, then how can you know the coverages that are harder to understand by leaps and bounds and are only available on All-22? Even with that as a tool, it's still hard.

What if Morris is competent and the extreme critics are not?

I am leaning towards that.