49'ers 2022/23 San Francisco 49’ers Thread

[OldSchool]

I guess I just think the Super Bowl wins were much more about the entire team, especially Terrell Davis, than any Elway evolution. He did more to get his teams to the SB earlier in his career, imo. He threw for 123 yards against the Packers.. only completed 11 passes.

I think the young version of Elway would've easily won a Super Bowl if you dropped him in on that team.

Not trying to put words in his mouth but I think you're agreeing with him just thinking differently about it. Young Elway would have won SB's earlier if they put that kind of team around him and that coach get him to buy into the system. How many running QB's have won a SB being like young Elway and a lot of the younger guys now being run first QB's.

 

[Kupped]

Not trying to put words in his mouth but I think you're agreeing with him just thinking differently about it. Young Elway would have won SB's earlier if they put that kind of team around him and that coach get him to buy into the system. How many running QB's have won a SB being like young Elway and a lot of the younger guys now being run first QB's.

I appreciate that, but that's just coaching, not Elway's evolution.

And was Elway ever a "Running QB"? His career high in rushing was 300 yards. Mahomes has run for that a couple of times.

I just don't see the fit here for this argument.

Also.. what are we even talking about when we say "running QBs"?

For me, it's guys where I think of the running threat first.. So, for me, I'd consider guys like Lamar and Hurts right now.
Josh Allen has passed for 4500 and 4400 yards the last couple of years... Do we consider him a running QB? He's run way more than Mahomes or Elway, for example.

It's splitting hairs, I guess.. but my point is the one I'm standing on for QBs.. at least in this era. Running or not running.. they have to be able to make plays from the pocket. Wilson and Murray can't operate well from the pocket. They make almost no use of the middle of the field.

So, who are we talking about?

 

[Merlin]

I guess I just think the Super Bowl wins were much more about the entire team, especially Terrell Davis, than any Elway evolution. He did more to get his teams to the SB earlier in his career, imo. He threw for 123 yards against the Packers.. only completed 11 passes.

I think the young version of Elway would've easily won a Super Bowl if you dropped him in on that team.

I don't disagree but we don't know for sure. We can play would've could've all day long and end up nowhere tbh.

So looking at it from the perspective of what we know... How many running QBs have won a ring. That was the question I was commenting on. And I find it interesting that Elway, who was very much like Mahomes and IMO better than him vs his own era, did not win his ring in his heyday where his legs were their freshest. Yes he took teams that had no business being in the Super Bowl to the Super Bowl, which is why I think he is the best QB to ever play the game. But in each of those biggest games on the biggest stage he couldn't get it done.

And what is an interesting correlation here is that when you're a pocket passer you need the weapons around you. So it's as if the basic design of the game ends up favoring a QB that is a quick distributor of the ball over every other consideration. Because that drives building of a team around them and because it's not one guy playing hero ball with everything on his shoulders it is much harder to shut down. Lot of interesting directions from that basic question IMO.

 

[OldSchool]

I appreciate that, but that's just coaching, not Elway's evolution.

That's the point though. A better coach would utilize not just his legs but his pocket ability. A one dimensional running QB isn't even now a recipe for success. They have to be able to do both.

 

[Kupped]

That's the point though. A better coach would utilize not just his legs but his pocket ability. A one dimensional running QB isn't even now a recipe for success. They have to be able to do both.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that it's fair, in those cases, to identify "running QB limitations" as the issue, you know?
I mean.. if Elway had Shanahan in those early years.. do they win?
Also, Elway just wasn't running that much. In 1984, for example, Joe Thiesman outrushed him.. at 35 years old.

I just don't think the shoe fits here.

 

[Merlin]

That's the point though. A better coach would utilize not just his legs but his pocket ability. A one dimensional running QB isn't even now a recipe for success. They have to be able to do both.

I will admit that if there were a one dimensional QB that could maybe pull it off it would be Lamar. Because even though he's not in that prototype range in his speed of reads his running ability is dominant. But then you have the injury side too, which might be the most limiting factor of all tbh.

 

[Kupped]

I don't disagree but we don't know for sure. We can play would've could've all day long and end up nowhere tbh.

So looking at it from the perspective of what we know... How many running QBs have won a ring. That was the question I was commenting on. And I find it interesting that Elway, who was very much like Mahomes and IMO better than him vs his own era, did not win his ring in his heyday where his legs were their freshest. Yes he took teams that had no business being in the Super Bowl to the Super Bowl, which is why I think he is the best QB to ever play the game. But in each of those biggest games on the biggest stage he couldn't get it done.

And what is an interesting correlation here is that when you're a pocket passer you need the weapons around you. So it's as if the basic design of the game ends up favoring a QB that is a quick distributor of the ball over every other consideration. Because that drives building of a team around them and because it's not one guy playing hero ball with everything on his shoulders it is much harder to shut down. Lot of interesting directions from that basic question IMO.

The last point is the biggest point, imo and what I was saying earlier.
Other than Wilson, who had a historic defense, I can't think of QBs who won the Super Bowl that couldn't truly win from the pocket. Maybe my memory is blanking.

 

[Merlin]

I can't think of QBs who won the Super Bowl that couldn't truly win from the pocket.

So you agree. Welcome to the conversation.

 

[OldSchool]

I will admit that if there were a one dimensional QB that could maybe pull it off it would be Lamar. Because even though he's not in that prototype range in his speed of reads his running ability is dominant. But then you have the injury side too, which might be the most limiting factor of all tbh.

Fortunately for him and Ravens fans his passing game took some big strides this off season.

 

[Kupped]

So you agree. Welcome to the conversation.

Lol.

I said as much in my first post on this.

I guess the concept of "running QB" is too nebulous for me. It doesn't mean anything in this context, TO ME, if what we *really mean* is that you can't win if you can't pass from the pocket.

 

[Merlin]

Fortunately for him and Ravens fans his passing game took some big strides this off season.

He's hitting the throws for sure. The dude has a great arm. But we'll see what happens as the season goes on and some of his schemed reads get disrupted.

 

[Steve808]

I know everyone's sick about the loss. I'm still sick about it.

But a small bright spot. Would you rather be us or them after what happened last season? Go Rams!

 

[Loyal]

View: https://twitter.com/HugoLakeshow/status/1577791599773294592?s=20&t=-xAnqPJNHX3kAnl_R_TK7g

 

[AZRams]

View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1488133753960607748?s=20&t=Z7GLZnNvBEhZyTbyvI43dg

 

[Tano]

He's hitting the throws for sure. The dude has a great arm. But we'll see what happens as the season goes on and some of his schemed reads get disrupted.

Lamar seems to fall apart once his team gets to the playoffs. I think it is primarily because he is so one dimensional that good defenses can tear apart his team in the playoffs. Plus he has got to be hurt a little bit once he gets to the playoffs because of all the running he does.

Look at Buffalo, except for a PI and a crazy ass lucky ass pass, Baltimore would have only scored 10 points in that game. Buffalo knows how to contain Lamar properly. He couldn't do a damn thing in the second half.

 

[Merlin]

View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1488133753960607748?s=20&t=Z7GLZnNvBEhZyTbyvI43dg

He's probably the best gameplanner but sure is mediocre at gameday adjustment.

 

[Steve808]

View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1488133753960607748?s=20&t=Z7GLZnNvBEhZyTbyvI43dg

Shanahan seems to gameplan well against only the Rams. The Cardinals give them all they can handle and the She pigeons owned the whiners under Russell Wilson.

This is just my opinion but earlier in McVay's career in LA, the Rams were more of a power running team that also passed well. We did okay against the whiners when we had Goff and Gurley. (Don't count the loss when we sat our starters in the 2018 season). We also had Bobby Trees running power sweeps and things.

Since then we went to a less creative run game. I know we gotta run to keep the heat off Stafford but we don't need to run up the middle for a 1.9 yard average per carry. I think we need an occasional sweep or a shovel pass. I know McVay will figure this out. He always does.

Our defense played well enough to win on Monday and the only really bad play was allowing dumbo samuel to score.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Shanahan seems to gameplan well against only the Rams. The Cardinals give them all they can handle and the She pigeons owned the whiners under Russell Wilson.

This is just my opinion but earlier in McVay's career in LA, the Rams were more of a power running team that also passed well. We did okay against the whiners when we had Goff and Gurley. (Don't count the loss when we sat our starters in the 2018 season). We also had Bobby Trees running power sweeps and things.

Since then we went to a less creative run game. I know we gotta run to keep the heat off Stafford but we don't need to run up the middle for a 1.9 yard average per carry. I think we need an occasional sweep or a shovel pass. I know McVay will figure this out. He always does.

Our defense played well enough to win on Monday and the only really bad play was allowing dumbo samuel to score.

McVay always figures it out?

 

[kurtfaulk]

McVay always figures it out?

he figured out how to win a superbowl.

.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

Lamar seems to fall apart once his team gets to the playoffs. I think it is primarily because he is so one dimensional that good defenses can tear apart his team in the playoffs. Plus he has got to be hurt a little bit once he gets to the playoffs because of all the running he does.

Look at Buffalo, except for a PI and a crazy ass lucky ass pass, Baltimore would have only scored 10 points in that game. Buffalo knows how to contain Lamar properly. He couldn't do a damn thing in the second half.

Plenty of pocket qbs have lost in the playoffs as well. Lamar isn’t one dimensional, he just lost like most teams.

Also, Buffalo didn’t contain him. They probably would have lost if Harbough kicked the fg. You can’t ignore half the game and say they contained him.