Somebody sell me on Goff

[jrry32]

Since one of the absolute key things to succeeding as a QB in the NFL is the ability to read defenses prior to the snap and make play adjustments as you get to the line, in fact arguably once a QB gets to a certain physical level it is the top factor determining success, and that is an area where Wentz has experience and Goff doesn't, it sounds like you're saying they should draft Wentz.

I don't know where people keeping coming up with these myths.

 

[Akrasian]

I don't know where people keeping coming up with these myths.

I must have missed the part where Goff played in a pro system, and had to make such reads.

Goff has many good things, and I expect him to succeed in the long term - but it is not true that he played in a pro system, made pro style reads, had to make the sort of play changes in a spread that he will be called upon to do in the pros. And you do him a disservice by pretending otherwise.

Adding on: Yes, Goff ran a fairly complicated offense - by spread standards. But the point of the spread ultimately is that things - including QB calls - are greatly simplified compared to pro sets.

QBs do end up succeeding coming out of such systems - but it IS a negative, and I don't see how anybody could say otherwise. Most of the ones who succeed either sit for a while, or have the offense simplified around their abilities for a year or two, after which some can adjust to a pro offense, others not so much.

 

[BriansRams]

Sell you on Goff? Ok. Well it's fairly relaxing and doesn't take a lot of physical talent. You get to be outdoors and wear goofy clothing without being laughed at. Um, you can play with up to 3 others...

 

[jrry32]

I must have missed the part where Goff played in a pro system, and had to make such reads.

Goff has many good things, and I expect him to succeed in the long term - but it is not true that he played in a pro system, made pro style reads, had to make the sort of play changes in a spread that he will be called upon to do in the pros. And you do him a disservice by pretending otherwise.

We weren't a check-with-me system. There are times in my career where I did that, because it helped us win games. But our offense now is built upon progression reads.

There are many plays when you watch Jared, he gets to his fifth progression. It's a straight dropback system where he goes through his progression and tries to get to that fifth read within three seconds. If he doesn't, he'll be in trouble, because he'll be sacked.

Another thing we do with him, he was able to change protections at any time. He was allowed to change the play at any time. He probably had to do more than any NFL quarterback does right now.

A lot of what Jared did: I call a play with two or three guys running routes within the play. Pre-snap, he can come up and change everything. He could change the play completely if he wanted to do so. He could just change the protection. Or he could wait until the ball is snapped and make a decision based on what the defense did.

“People think because we’re in this Air Raid family that there’s one or two progressions for the quarterback, which is really an insult because it’s nowhere near the truth,” Franklin says. “We give the quarterback an incredible amount of responsibility and (Goff) got more than any quarterback since I’ve been coaching.

“He probably had more on his shoulders before the snap than any quarterback in the NFL.”

Under Franklin, Goff had the ability to choose between the called run play and an alternate pass play, and vice versa, based on the alignment of the defense. Goff had the ability to audible individual routes on pass plays, and Franklin estimates he adjusted the protection scheme on about 10% of passing plays.

“A lot of times when you get the man look, especially with a play like this, it’s a pre-snap read,” Goff says, explaining the wheel route that he’s about to throw to his running back. “I saw they had No. 44 [linebacker Kevin Palma] on our running back. I had a good feeling the back was going to run by him. I knew they’d have a safety in the middle of the field so, technically, those routes coming up the middle on the other side shouldn’t be open, but they were. If I was just going by my rules, I did the right thing [by still throwing to the wheel route]. But there are a lot of times where you go by your rules and you’re wrong. You kind-of have to adjust to it, and in this case I think I was right.” Goff points out that often when you see man coverage, you’re just picking the matchup that you’d most like to attack. Anything with a linebacker in coverage is usually enticing.

The beauty of Cal’s system—particularly in how it relates to Goff’s NFL transition—is that there are a lot of plays with routes that beat man coverage on one side of the formation and routes that beat zone on the other. Also: “I had a plethora of signals I could throw out there,” Goff says. “If I knew they were in man, I would give the receiver a certain signal. If I knew they were in zone, a different signal.”

“This play is called, South empty left whip F. I changed the protection to a full-man slide left, which ended up probably not being the right decision because they brought a guy off the right. But I wanted to slide left because I knew No. 4 [Blake Martinez] was blitzing because that safety is kind of creeping over behind him.” (This suggested the safety would be picking up Martinez’s receiver in coverage, which meant Martinez would be rushing.) “So I know he was coming, and I think the other four are coming too. I want to slide them left so I know that Martinez is my defender that’s free.”

By knowing the free defender, Goff could adjust his dropback movement accordingly. This is a subtle trait of high-level quarterbacking. Aaron Rodgers, in particular, has been adept here. Coincidentally, he’s someone Goff is lazily compared to because of the Cal connection.

Later, Goff “tagged” a play, which in essence is a pre-snap adjustment between just the quarterback and receiver. “I said run a post. I gave him a hand signal.”

“I knew I was going to get the look I wanted. I’m taking a shot—back of the end zone. Knew that safety was probably going to bite on this play-fake. Took a peak left to try and hold them for a second longer and then just came back to it [deep], knowing it would be there. Probably came back to it just a second too late. If I come back to it a little bit early, it’s probably a touchdown. Still almost got it in.”

"I could run 'north' and I could run 'sluggo X,'" Franklin says. "So in [Goff's] brain, if I said 'north sluggo,' he knows that it's a high-low read for him."

Yea, you must have missed all those parts. Like where Goff and Tony Franklin (his OC) talk about his pre-snap reads. Or when they talk about all the freedom that Goff had at the LOS including the ability to select plays at the LOS, audible, change protections, change routes, etc. Or when they talk about Goff's post-snap reads and progression system. Like when Franklin discusses Goff making high-low reads as part of one of the passing concepts. And, of course, we all know that high-low reads are a staple of the Air Coryell offense. Especially the Air Coryell variant run by Norv Turner.

But no, you're right. I'm sure Goff never had to make pre-snap reads, change the plays pre-snap, make post-snap reads, or go through pro style progressions. Unless we believe Goff and his OC who say that was exactly what he did.

 

[dolphinlover123]

Since one of the absolute key things to succeeding as a QB in the NFL is the ability to read defenses prior to the snap and make play adjustments as you get to the line, in fact arguably once a QB gets to a certain physical level it is the top factor determining success, and that is an area where Wentz has experience and Goff doesn't, it sounds like you're saying they should draft Wentz.

Jrry has provided multiple quotes and links about Goff having had experiences regarding this. Goff did in fact make pre-snap reads on defenses and make adjustments. Here's a link that explains it:

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaaf/eye...f-became-nations-top-nfl-quarterback-prospect

EDIT-----------------
Seems like he beat me to it and posted all of them LOL

 

[Akrasian]

Yea, you must have missed all those parts. Like where Goff and Tony Franklin (his OC) talk about his pre-snap reads. Or when they talk about all the freedom that Goff had at the LOS including the ability to select plays at the LOS, audible, change protections, change routes, etc. Or when they talk about Goff's post-snap reads and progression system. Like when Franklin discusses Goff making high-low reads as part of one of the passing concepts. And, of course, we all know that high-low reads are a staple of the Air Coryell offense. Especially the Air Coryell variant run by Norv Turner.

But no, you're right. I'm sure Goff never had to make pre-snap reads, change the plays pre-snap, make post-snap reads, or go through pro style progressions. Unless we believe Goff and his OC who say that was exactly what he did.

Gosh. A coach saying something to try to raise his player's draft stock. That's a first.

Spread offenses - even relatively complex ones - are designed to simplify the offense and reads compared to pro style offenses. That's why so many colleges use them, given their constantly changing personnel. The simpler reads can be over come, but they are a disadvantage compared to coming from a pro system.

It doesn't mean that the better prospect can't come from a spread system - but it IS a factor to consider.

I know you will keep arguing this until I give up, just like you kept arguing a couple of months ago that trading up to #1 would not cost anywhere near as much as the trade chart would indicate, and that there wouldn't be competition for the top QBs, since the niners had Kaepernick, the Browns would be the Browns, Dallas would never consider taking a QB, and nobody else would appear looking for one. Strangely enough, it ended up taking approximately what the trade chart indicated it would cost to move up to #1 thanks to the competition. Oh well.

I don't know who the Rams will take. I think in the long run either QB is one the Rams will be happy with. I think each prospect has advantages and disadvantages. I do think that ignoring the spread is a mistake. Perhaps overall Goff is the better prospect - but that is despite coming from a spread (even a complex version). Ignoring the change in offense and the different reads he will have to make is not in the Rams' interest, even if ultimately they decide that taking Goff is the right move all things considered.

 

[jrry32]

Gosh. A coach saying something to try to raise his player's draft stock. That's a first.

Spread offenses - even relatively complex ones - are designed to simplify the offense and reads compared to pro style offenses. That's why so many colleges use them, given their constantly changing personnel. The simpler reads can be over come, but they are a disadvantage compared to coming from a pro system.

It doesn't mean that the better prospect can't come from a spread system - but it IS a factor to consider.

Just to get this straight, you're accusing Franklin of lying about how his system operates and Goff's responsibilities in that system? You're also accusing Goff of lying about the reads he makes and the responsibilities he has at the LOS? This is based on your expansive of knowledge of the Cal offense from your years running it, I presume.

Otherwise, it would look like you aren't willing to admit when you're wrong. I'm sure that's not true.

I know you will keep arguing this until I give up, just like you kept arguing a couple of months ago that trading up to #1 would not cost anywhere near as much as the trade chart would indicate, and that there wouldn't be competition for the top QBs, since the niners had Kaepernick, the Browns would be the Browns, Dallas would never consider taking a QB, and nobody else would appear looking for one. Strangely enough, it ended up taking approximately what the trade chart indicated it would cost to move up to #1 thanks to the competition. Oh well.

Didn't you argue that a trade up to #1 would cost us more than the RGIII trade while I argued that the RGIII trade was one-of-a-kind and it would not cost more than that? Not sure what you're gloating about here.

But I will admit I was wrong about there not being competition. Didn't expect the Jets to be able to compete or the Eagles to choose to compete.

It ended up costing what the trade chart indicated? How are we measuring the value of future picks?

I don't know who the Rams will take. I think in the long run either QB is one the Rams will be happy with. I think each prospect has advantages and disadvantages. I do think that ignoring the spread is a mistake. Perhaps overall Goff is the better prospect - but that is despite coming from a spread (even a complex version). Ignoring the change in offense and the different reads he will have to make is not in the Rams' interest, even if ultimately they decide that taking Goff is the right move all things considered.

There's a large difference between saying he'll make different reads in the Rams offense and saying that he didn't make pre-snap reads or make adjustments at the LOS in college.

 

[Ramhusker]

I'm so confused!

 

[Mackeyser]

I don't know enough about either player, but this out-of-nowhere hype on Wentz concerns me. Also, the fact that he could be coming out of a small school, North Dakota State nonetheless, and going straight to a big place like Los Angeles is steep, even if that's a reaching argument. I'm not one for hopping on hypetrains these days.

The little I know about either player has left me neither impressed nor unimpressed. Just gonna echo what others have said about hoping for the best. Whoever our team's front office chooses, I hope they take the league by storm, because we are starving for a winner.

It's not out of nowhere. He was talked about quite a bit by draftniks coming into the season and was getting pretty nice attention leading up to his injury. Problem for him was as the hype machines were cranking up, he was wearing a headset. Had the wrist happened last year and he had the big numbers this year, I'm certain the view of Wentz would be different.

 

[Akrasian]

Just to get this straight, you're accusing Franklin of lying about how his system operates and Goff's responsibilities in that system? You're also accusing Goff of lying about the reads he makes and the responsibilities he has at the LOS? This is based on your expansive of knowledge of the Cal offense from your years running it, I presume.

Otherwise, it would look like you aren't willing to admit when you're wrong. I'm sure that's not true.

No, I'm saying just like every other coach in the history of football (or close to it) he spun things to favor his players publically.

I'm sure you're not that naive, or are you?

Didn't you argue that a trade up to #1 would cost us more than the RGIII trade while I argued that the RGIII trade was one-of-a-kind and it would not cost more than that? Not sure what you're gloating about here.

No, I argued that it would take around the draft pick value chart in trade, and you argued that it would take a lot less - and that the Rams could get a significant bargain compared to the chart to trade up to #1. And kept arguing. And kept arguing, until I finally left the argument because there was no point in posting anymore.

And one of the points we argued about was whether future picks are devalued - I argued that historically future picks are valued about one pick lower than if they would be if they were from this year. Which works within a margin of error for the trade, as discussed in other threads. FLV (I think) believes they are valued 70 some percent instead, which might work too.

You do have a tendency to keep arguing regardless, and you have a tendency to defend Goff against any slight, against saying that anything might keep Goff from being the perfect prospect. Saying that Goff has more to learn than if he played in a pro system is true, and IS an object of concern. He may or may not be a better prospect overall than Wentz, but it is ridiculous given the history of QBs coming from spread systems - even complex spreads - to say that it doesn't matter at all. You're brighter than that, just stubborn when it comes to Goff.

For the record - while with the limited understanding I have compared to the intensive study Snisher have done comparing Wentz and Goff I prefer Wentz at this time - I do believe it's close, and that the Rams will be happy with either, and that I could be wrong. Especially since the ultimate differences will likely be things that can only be known with perfect knowledge of their character and work habits, which we do not have. But for things that any of us can know, there are some things about Goff which are better, and some things about Wentz which are better - and for the latter, it's not ALL physical stuff. He is experienced in a pro system with an unusual amount of responsibility in it, and is reputedly an amazingly hard worker - this is not in comparison to Goff, but in comparison to QBs in general.

 

[Ken]

A question for you experts. For both QBs, when they run do they know how to slide? Are they Aaron Rodger's smooth and natural at it, or does it look somewhat awkward?

 

[jrry32]

No, I'm saying just like every other coach in the history of football (or close to it) he spun things to favor his players publically.

I'm sure you're not that naive, or are you?

I guess I am that naive. I trust Goff and Franklin when they describe the system they ran and the reads/responsibilities in that system.

Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. Show us all that you know more about the system than Franklin and Goff do. Show us all how naive we are to believe them.

No, I argued that it would take around the draft pick value chart in trade, and you argued that it would take a lot less - and that the Rams could get a significant bargain compared to the chart to trade up to #1. And kept arguing. And kept arguing, until I finally left the argument because there was no point in posting anymore.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/peter-king-rams-must-trade-up-draft-quarterback.42218/page-2

In which case it will likely take trading up to #1 to get him. On the draft value charts, if the Rams draft #18, that would likely be their firsts through 2018, both seconds this year, and possibly something else just to get in the conversation. Since teams need draft picks that hit to stay under the cap and do well, it basically would cripple the rest of the team, as productive players get too expensive to keep and there aren't as good players waiting behind them. And Goff would not have anybody to throw to, unless the Rams just don't resign most of their defense in order to sign free agent wide receivers.

Somehow, I don't see the Rams doing that.

Nah. You're overstating things. The RGIII trade was truly one of a kind. You almost never see that sort of value. I think, at most, it would cost us what RGIII cost Washington. Might cost us less considering the lack of competition.

But I don't see us trading up to #1.

 

[TheTackle]

Way to go Jrry, your killing it. We live in an age where people can't help but take what they hear broadcast in the media and repeat it as their own opinion. Even if they don't take the time to read or do their own research, to doubt the hype, to consider the evidence, people will defend their easily assimilated opinion as if their own reputation depended on it.

Everything you have argued is correct to my mind, and carries greater weight because you have formed you opinion based on the weight of evidence, having spent a great deal of time watching, thinking, reading, thinking, watching, writing etc. Nothing you have said is over stated, you do not have to sell anything, the evidence supports your opinion. In Goffs case his ceiling is being the best QB in the NFL... Will he be? Who knows?

Ceiling is meaningless, no one QB has a higher ceiling, these are media terms that allow the talking heads to deliberately take up a different position and thus generate debate, hype, viewing figures etc etc. Goff is a better prospect than any other QB in quite some time, Newton has surprised me, because it's impossible to say how one QB might develop and another not. Goff is the better prospect because he already does those things that Newton has developed to make him great. Goff will gain yards with his feet, but not like Newton, because he is pass first and can key his reads quicker than Cam

Finally, what about the huge significance of being the golden armed kid from California that everyone in LA is going to go gah gah over day one. Don't you think that has something to do with our decision? Goff will not be phased, will live and breath football, will continue to improve. This kid played as a true freshman, is two years younger than Wentz, has better game already and is still developing, i.e. Hasn't come close to reaching the mystical ceiling, a meaningless term that media hounds over use

 

[12intheBox]

Guys - most spread offenses have reads - the real negative of coming from the spread is the footwork and the angles are different.

 

[Mackeyser]

C'mon, Jerry. Coach Franklin said Goff had more responsiblity than NFL QBs.

Just no.

Part of that responsibility comes from responding to the complexities of the defenses faced. Coach Franklin is stating that defenses in the Pac-12 are more complicated than in the NFL?

That's absurd.

Has Goff had a tremendous amount of responsibility? YES!

Has he had the KINDS of responsibilities in the Bear Raid spread offense that translate directly to the pro game? YES!

Will that likely mean that his chances of success in transitioning to the NFL are increased? YES!

Is Coach Franklin lying? Well, I'd prefer to say he's guilty of aggravated hyperbole with intent to distribute.

The bottom line is Goff's a good kid who has a bright future unless he goes to Cleveland. Same with Wentz.

Even as I advocate for Wentz (bang the table is more accurate), I'm taking time and making the effort to take in all of the virtues and positive attributes that Goff possesses so that whomever holds that Rams jersey with the 1 on it, I will hold no bitterness, only hope for an exciting future.

 

[jrry32]

C'mon, Jerry. Coach Franklin said Goff had more responsiblity than NFL QBs.

Just no.

His statement was an exaggeration.(he did say any QB) But he did have more responsibilities than some NFL QBs. For example, Miami barely gave Ryan Tannehill any responsibility at the LOS. He couldn't even change the play.

The point being made in his exaggeration is that Goff will be knocked because he played in an Air Raid variant for something that isn't really a negative. Unfortunately, we've seen it happen in this thread. People see Air Raid and make assumptions.

The bottom line is Goff's a good kid who has a bright future unless he goes to Cleveland. Same with Wentz.

Even as I advocate for Wentz (bang the table is more accurate), I'm taking time and making the effort to take in all of the virtues and positive attributes that Goff possesses so that whomever holds that Rams jersey with the 1 on it, I will hold no bitterness, only hope for an exciting future.

As I've maintained all along, this is a win-win. Wentz and Goff are both great prospects and the Rams will do well with either at QB. I've been defending Goff of late because the added attention after the trade has brought out some criticisms that I feel are unfair. I also defended Wentz for a long time before his hype train really took off. Right now, it seems that he has more than enough people willing to step up and correct some of the misconceptions about him.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I'd be for Wentz for two reasons: Intensity and fit.

Yep.
I think its possible that some of the fans may have expectations of the Rams drafting one of these guys and then all of a sudden they're going to hand off to Gurley 15-18 times and start slinging the ball all over the field trying to get 300 + yards in the air every week. That ain't gonna happen folks.

 

[Mackeyser]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure winning will fix any concerns anyone will have.

 

[dolphinlover123]

Yep.
I think its possible that some of the fans may have expectations of the Rams drafting one of these guys and then all of a sudden they're going to hand off to Gurley 15-18 times and start slinging the ball all over the field trying to get 300 + yards in the air every week. That ain't gonna happen folks.

Good point. Can you guys tell me where I can read more about the Rams' offensive philosophy? All I know is that Rams likes to run a lot. But run/pass distribution can vary with the type of personnel you have, I'm assuming. So is the fact that the Rams is run heavy due to the lack of a quality QB? What does an ideal offense look like?

 

[Mackeyser]

Yep.
I think its possible that some of the fans may have expectations of the Rams drafting one of these guys and then all of a sudden they're going to hand off to Gurley 15-18 times and start slinging the ball all over the field trying to get 300 + yards in the air every week. That ain't gonna happen folks.

Well, yeah. Part of that fit is the ability to hurt the defense with what I call strategic runs. When we've played pure pocket passers, our D has licked its chops because you know where the QB is gonna be. When playing Seattle, that mobile QB means a spy AND means the very nature of how the DL rushes is altered. Not every D can counter a mobile QB which is why Kaep was so successful even as he had huge holes as a thrower.

With our weapons and our coaching staff and offensive philosophy (if you can call it that... I mean it is offensive and it is a philosophy), I think Wentz fits better.

I think those who are hoping for Goff and looking at how the next HC will use him, I wouldn't hold my breath. Fisher would really have to tank things badly to make that happen.