Kupp + Puka = Bruce + Holt

[jrry32]

Az would've been a #2 receiver on most of the teams in the league; he just happened to be behind two HOFers (and it is a fucking CRIME that Holt's not in the Hall yet). If he signed with a better team to be a #2 instead of going to Detroit (who would end up as one of the worst teams of the decade), maybe his legacy is different. And I disagree that Hakim was a 4.4 guy. He outran every defender. He outran Champ Bailey at full speed (Holt did as well.)

Az ran a 4.45 40 at the Combine. And he never had a 1000 yard season. Tyreek Hill had over 1700 receiving yards last year. Hill is legitimately one of the fastest guys to ever play the game. Hakim wasn't.

 

[Kupped]

Different components can add up to a similar total.

Btw.. there’s a video on one of the Rams feeds today of Kupp and Puka doing the same drill. Lemme just say Kupp is just from a different planet.

 

[TexasRam]

We'll see. Right now - as good as Nacua has played - it's been four games, and we're talking about comparing him to HOFers? Let's ease up on the kid. He'll make mistakes, just like Kupp did in his rookie year, and that's okay; he's a rookie and he can afford to make mistakes. He keeps up this pace for the season, and I'll be right on the Puka Nacua HOFer bandwagon with you. I just think it's a little early.

Atwell being compared to Hakim...well, I know Hakim is polarizing, but at his best, he had Tyreek Hill's speed and twice as much elusiveness (if less power) than Hill. Atwell has been awesome, but he doesn't return punts like Hakim did, and while he's made some excellent and tough catches that Hakim would never do, I don't think he's a WR2 type yet like Hakim was for us.

And the GSoT simply cannot be compared to; Martz, for all his faults, revolutionized football in a way that our Rams, as amazing of a coach as McVay is (in my opinion, McVay's a better coach than Vermeil and Martz), simply can't do. Yes, he's revolutionized schemes and such, but he hasn't revolutionized the game itself like the GSoT did.

How do you think Martz revolutionized the league?

My take, was he implemented the Coryell offense, Deep passing game at a time that the league wasn’t prepared for it. Lucky for him he had the WR’s and QB and Oline to successfully execute it.

The league was running a ton of west coast short passing offense (Bill Walsh west coast) and defenses were calibrated to defend that.

Mcvay, from what I can tell is basically tweaking a bunch of west coach and other concepts. Creating a system of tweaks out of 11 personnel.

Mcvays system continues to be copied via the OC’s and assistants that are hired around the league. So, I would call that revolutionizing the league.

Did any other team copy Martz system or try to duplicate it? I seriously can’t remember. I don’t recall too many teams trying or successfully succeeding doing it.

Martz himself couldn’t duplicate it wherever he went and was eventually bounced from the league. Probably because the league caught up and it wasn’t feasible for any team to put together a top Oline along with. Kurt Warner and 3 future pro bowl skill guys.

 

[gogoat1]

These 2 guys are nice. GSOT was all time greatness.

 

[Kupped]

These 2 guys are nice. GSOT was all time greatness.

Kupp is an all-timer.

Puka is putting up all-time numbers.

Who knows where it goes?

 

[Loyal]

"The Rams could be unstoppable...."


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEiP62ZR-Gg

 

[TexasRam]

"The Rams could be unstoppable...."


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEiP62ZR-Gg

Really cool video showing the play design concepts and how Puka was so wide open.

But I would argue it’s the Oline that makes it work. Play designs such as these are used by every team every week. The play never happens if the protection breaks down.

Ask Mahomes how important that Oline is.

Where Mcvay’s brain came into play was drafting Avila and building that depth on the Oline. A lesson he learned the hard way.

 

[swmizzou83]

We'll see. Right now - as good as Nacua has played - it's been four games, and we're talking about comparing him to HOFers? Let's ease up on the kid. He'll make mistakes, just like Kupp did in his rookie year, and that's okay; he's a rookie and he can afford to make mistakes. He keeps up this pace for the season, and I'll be right on the Puka Nacua HOFer bandwagon with you. I just think it's a little early.

Atwell being compared to Hakim...well, I know Hakim is polarizing, but at his best, he had Tyreek Hill's speed and twice as much elusiveness (if less power) than Hill. Atwell has been awesome, but he doesn't return punts like Hakim did, and while he's made some excellent and tough catches that Hakim would never do, I don't think he's a WR2 type yet like Hakim was for us.

And the GSoT simply cannot be compared to; Martz, for all his faults, revolutionized football in a way that our Rams, as amazing of a coach as McVay is (in my opinion, McVay's a better coach than Vermeil and Martz), simply can't do. Yes, he's revolutionized schemes and such, but he hasn't revolutionized the game itself like the GSoT did.

You've got some real homerism going on with this post. Hakim being better than Hill is a joke. Hill is going to be in the HOF. Hakim had decent speed but Hill is one of the fastest human beings in the planet. Hakim's best season is about on par with Hill's rookie season which is by far his worst.

 

[tempests]

Az ran a 4.45 40 at the Combine. And he never had a 1000 yard season. Tyreek Hill had over 1700 receiving yards last year. Hill is legitimately one of the fastest guys to ever play the game. Hakim wasn't.

I wouldn't make that much of Az's 40 time. They were still hand timing it back then.

On that turf he was the fastest player on the Rams and definitely one of the fastest players in football. Even if not quite Tyreek Hill.

 

[FrantikRam]

Holt, Bruce and Faulk all 4.4 track speed.

Faulk was so explosive and unstoppable with his jukes and speed. I like Kyren but he’s like 2 levels below Faulk.

The possession WR’s that Kupp and Puka are does add a different dimension that the GSOT lacked. It could be as hard to stop while being more move the chains and less explosive.

Hakim and Tutu are similar though.

Remember that Vikings divisional game?

Throw it to Bruce for an 80 yard TD then next possession same thing to Faulk. The big play stuff was unmatched.

Kupp is probably the best YAC WR in the league....we call that a possession receiver?

 

[LouisvilleRam]

You've got some real homerism going on with this post. Hakim being better than Hill is a joke. Hill is going to be in the HOF. Hakim had decent speed but Hill is one of the fastest human beings in the planet. Hakim's best season is about on par with Hill's rookie season which is by far his worst.

It's a little early to say he is HOF bound plus his off the field stuff is going to hurt his voting

 

[LouisvilleRam]

Holt, Bruce and Faulk all 4.4 track speed.

Faulk was so explosive and unstoppable with his jukes and speed. I like Kyren but he’s like 2 levels below Faulk.

The possession WR’s that Kupp and Puka are does add a different dimension that the GSOT lacked. It could be as hard to stop while being more move the chains and less explosive.

Hakim and Tutu are similar though.

Remember that Vikings divisional game?

Throw it to Bruce for an 80 yard TD then next possession same thing to Faulk. The big play stuff was unmatched.

True about Holt & Faulk but Bruce had a 4.55 40 time at the combine

 

[FrantikRam]

We'll see. Right now - as good as Nacua has played - it's been four games, and we're talking about comparing him to HOFers? Let's ease up on the kid. He'll make mistakes, just like Kupp did in his rookie year, and that's okay; he's a rookie and he can afford to make mistakes. He keeps up this pace for the season, and I'll be right on the Puka Nacua HOFer bandwagon with you. I just think it's a little early.

Atwell being compared to Hakim...well, I know Hakim is polarizing, but at his best, he had Tyreek Hill's speed and twice as much elusiveness (if less power) than Hill. Atwell has been awesome, but he doesn't return punts like Hakim did, and while he's made some excellent and tough catches that Hakim would never do, I don't think he's a WR2 type yet like Hakim was for us.

And the GSoT simply cannot be compared to; Martz, for all his faults, revolutionized football in a way that our Rams, as amazing of a coach as McVay is (in my opinion, McVay's a better coach than Vermeil and Martz), simply can't do. Yes, he's revolutionized schemes and such, but he hasn't revolutionized the game itself like the GSoT did.

I think McVay has revolutionized it more. Nobody really tried to copy Martz because....nobody had THAT talent. It wasn't something that could be copied. I disagree that the GSOT revolutionized the game itself - it was just flat out greatness. All these years later no team has EVER scored 500 points in three straight seasons except that group.

McVay meanwhile has been copied in nearly every facet - hiring his coaches, running his schemes, hiring younger coaches, etc.

I like Hakim a lot, but he was not close to Tyreek. And for as good as Bruce and Holt were - IMO Kupp is better. The only difference in their numbers is Kupps injuries....per game Kupp compared with any WR in league history.

Pretty clear that rookie Puka is better than rookie Holt FWIW...and I think Tutu is about as good as Hakim. Comparison falls apart at Faulk obviously, and once you go past 1999 with Holt.

 

[Oyster]

It seemed like after the turn of the century, Holt and Bruce were noticeable in their efforts to avoid contact. The going-down-early-to-avoid-contact bothered some people.

Kupp and Puka are contact guys. It's a different aesthetic. No one's going to call these guys finesse receivers and no one asked Holt/Bruce to block DEs.

----------------------

I deleted a couple of my draft responses to this. It could be a topic on it's own and I think there was a thread or 200 on this.
Decided to go with this - People can say that McVay didn't revolutionize the game, but what is the effect of the McVay coaching tree/forest on the game?

Martz the revolutionary v. McVay the evolutionary?

Excellent observation on the differences between Holt/Bruce vs Kupp/Puka. Holt and Bruce left a lot of extra yards on the field by laying down early.

 

[thirteen28]

How do you think Martz revolutionized the league?

My take, was he implemented the Coryell offense, Deep passing game at a time that the league wasn’t prepared for it. Lucky for him he had the WR’s and QB and Oline to successfully execute it.

I think McVay has revolutionized it more. Nobody really tried to copy Martz because....nobody had THAT talent. It wasn't something that could be copied. I disagree that the GSOT revolutionized the game itself - it was just flat out greatness. All these years later no team has EVER scored 500 points in three straight seasons except that group.

I agree with both of these takes in that it was more talent than scheme that made the GSOT so good. Four HOFers (Pace, Faulk, Bruce, and Warner) and one more should-be HOFer (Holt) in the Coryell offense, which fit them perfectly. That was about as good a match of scheme and personnel that is possible. And it took the NFL by surprise because the order of the day was horizontal passing/WCO/dink-and-dunk - and defenses designed to stop that.

Nevertheless, the revolution of the the Coryell scheme had occurred almost two decades earlier, first in St. Louis with the Cardinals and then in San Diego, and had seen other iterations around the league, most notably in Washington (where Gibbs married power running to vertical passing in the Coryell framework) and in Dallas (where Jimmy Johnson did something similar).

Where I do think the GSOT might have revolutionized the game is in motivating the NFL to tweak the rules even more to favor offenses and, in particular, the wide open passing game. Offenses had gotten kind of boring in the late 90's with so many trying to copy Walsh's success, and defenses adapting. And suddenly, you have this zag where everyone else is zigging, this wide open, vertical, spectacular, dynamic, and most importantly to the league powers - exciting - offense. You had an offense where 3rd and 25 didn't mean an automatic punt on the next play with a first down a distinct possibility, one where a TD could happen on any play.

I think the NFL looked at that and asked themselves "how can we get more of this?" And in the wake of that, we got more rules to favor passing offenses. That was the real revolution wrought by the GSOT.

 

[snackdaddy]

Kupp and Puka are different types of receivers than Bruce and Holt. As great as Bruce and Holt were, I'd rate Kupp as the best receiver we've ever had. Puka has a long way to go before being compared to Bruce or Holt.

 

[muggmeister]

I really like where this going and I think this opens a whole new level of Tutu. Defense's will HAVE to key on on both Kupp and Puka in the intermediate passing lanes so that should definitely open up more downfield shots for Atwell, hell any of them. Higbee on deep seem routes, Tutu on fly patterns, Williams one on one with a LB out of the backfield, this shit is about to get real folks, buckle up and enjoy the ride.

 

[Jacobarch]

Oh, but I'll say this: Skowronek is far more important and versatile than Proehl ever was to the overall offense. Proehl, as good as he was, isn't the blocker that Skow is, cannot play a hybrid HB/WR like Skow can.

It's a completely different system, where the GSOT rams really didn't ask their WR's to inline block. As a pure WR Proehl was twice the WR Skow is.

 

[Tumak61]

Can't see the comparison at all. Trying to imagine Holt and Bruce blocking in this Offense is a little comical. Nacua and Kupp are big physical monsters blocking, catching and running. They are about to go off on the Eagles.

 

[Kupped]

I think the "=" part is about overall effectiveness. Just my two cents.

They're doing the same basic job in very different was using different tools.. but getting some really great results. Not the explosive scoring at this point, but still really good stuff.