Kay Adams leaving Good Morning Football

[AvengerRam]

I wish that we could get to the point that female analysts/commentators were treated the same as their male counterparts.

No one cares what male commentators look like.

You raise an interesting point, but when pretty much all of the female commentators (not just in sports, by the way) are objectively attractive (the same can't be said about the men), it does call into question the criteria used to hire them. That's not to say that the ones on TV don't have football knowledge. It just comes across like looks are a bigger factor for female personalities.

I think that, to some degree, the networks underestimate their audience. If, for example, there was a female commentator with the insight of say, Louis Riddick (or, if you don't like him, an analyst you like) and the charisma/enthusiasm of John Madden, but looked like... I don't know... Roseanne Barr... I'd be interested in watching/listening to her. If I want eye candy, I'll find it elsewhere.

 

[Merlin]

It's not really an interesting point. It's more a rallying cry in today's social environment.

Looking good on camera is important whether you're a man or woman. I don't want to watch ugly or grossly fat people give their opinions. I don't want to watch assholes sitting at home in their sweats raking in media money "working from home." I don't want to watch ugly people in all the roles in movies. Just my opinion.

As a producer if you go find someone solely based on their knowledge you are not fully exhausting the potential to draw in the most viewers. Which is a fail because this is a business and viewership is important. Kay runs a great show and looks great doing it. Win win.

 

[CanadaRam]

You raise an interesting point, but when pretty much all of the female commentators (not just in sports, by the way) are objectively attractive (the same can't be said about the men), it does call into question the criteria used to hire them. That's not to say that the ones on TV don't have football knowledge. It just comes across like looks are a bigger factor for female personalities.

I think that, to some degree, the networks underestimate their audience. If, for example, there was a female commentator with the insight of say, Louis Riddick (or, if you don't like him, an analyst you like) and the charisma/enthusiasm of John Madden, but looked like... I don't know... Roseanne Barr... I'd be interested in watching/listening to her. If I want eye candy, I'll find it elsewhere.

I think that we see things similarly.
And maybe we are thus not representative of target audience that creates most $ for the NFL (as well as other outlets sports and non sports).
I try to think that I evaluate the analysis rather than the person providing it.

There are many men, who have imo limited analytical insight in football and seem hard on the eye (from someone with different interests) who are fully accepted and make plenty of $$$.
I don't think that a female analyst/commentator will make $$$ unless visually appealing.

 

[AvengerRam]

It's not really an interesting point. It's more a rallying cry in today's social environment.

Looking good on camera is important whether you're a man or woman. I don't want to watch ugly or grossly fat people give their opinions. I don't want to watch assholes sitting at home in their sweats raking in media money "working from home." I don't want to watch ugly people in all the roles in movies. Just my opinion.

As a producer if you go find someone solely based on their knowledge you are not fully exhausting the potential to draw in the most viewers. Which is a fail because this is a business and viewership is important. Kay runs a great show and looks great doing it. Win win.

So, you think that John Clayton, Tony Siragusa and Rex Ryan looked good on camera?

Or, stated another way, who, among the female analysts, is the equivalent of those guys from a looks standpoint?

Its all well and good to say you'd prefer to watch pretty people on the screen. Let's not pretend, though, that this preference applies equally to both genders when it comes to NFL TV analysts.

 

[Mister Sin]

If they could find a way to bring Nate back and kick Kyle off as well…would be great

 

[Merlin]

So, you think that John Clayton, Tony Siragusa and Rex Ryan looked good on camera?

Or, stated another way, who, among the female analysts, is the equivalent of those guys from a looks standpoint?

Its all well and good to say you'd prefer to watch pretty people on the screen. Let's not pretend, though, that this preference applies equally to both genders when it comes to NFL TV analysts.

I think we're headed for a conversation that will lead into a locked thread. Do we want to do that here?

Bottom line is I like attractive women. I like to look at them. I like to flirt with them. And I don't hide it. If that offends you somehow so be it. For me why not have the best of both worlds.

I'm good with people being saints and trying to be perfect and trying to treat everyone the same. But sometimes the best intentions don't always have the best results. For purposes of this conversation that result would be less viewership.

 

[Merlin]

Speaking of attractive women here's a couple doing a great interview with our QB. Figured this is as good a place to put it as anywhere, didn't want to start a new thread for it. Oh and I'm digging the Def Leppard shirt Charissa is rockin:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvz8G7ecUp0&ab_channel=CalmDownWithErinandCharissa

 

[AvengerRam]

I think we're headed for a conversation that will lead into a locked thread. Do we want to do that here?

Bottom line is I like attractive women. I like to look at them. I like to flirt with them. And I don't hide it. If that offends you somehow so be it. For me why not have the best of both worlds.

I'm good with people being saints and trying to be perfect and trying to treat everyone the same. But sometimes the best intentions don't always have the best results. For purposes of this conversation that result would be less viewership.

Not sure where you got the idea that I'm "offended" by anything you wrote or any aspect of this topic.

I'm an employment lawyer, so I find a discussion about hiring practices/criteria interesting. What you stated about the networks' desire to hire people most likely to draw viewers is 100% true. Clearly, the football viewing audience is predominantly (heterosexual) male, which is why they place a higher premium on the visual appeal of female analysts as compared to male analysts (I don't know how anyone could deny this).

Is this a legally valid criteria? Without getting too far down the analytical rabbit hole, it comes down to whether (for lack of a better term) "sex appeal" is a bona fide occupational qualification for female analysts. There have been cases about this over the years. Hooters, for example, battled the EEOC in court over whether their business model allowed them to hire only (hot) women as servers, despite the inherent discriminatory nature of such a policy. If you've been to a Hooters, you can see that they essentially prevailed. On the other hand, SouthWest Airlines tried, many years ago, to make a similar argument to preserve their female flight attendant/"Love Airline" promotion. They lost.

So, again... no offense taken by anyone's perspective. It's just, from my standpoint, an interesting issue. I think the current status quo is that female analysts must have sufficient football knowledge to be credible, so that their appearance is not deemed the sole reason for their presence.

 

[Merlin]

I look at it like this Avenger...

Humans have been telling each other how to think for the entirety of their existence. Most recently we in our early US culture were driven by religion, specifically Christianity, from the outset with groups like the Quakers. Now we are transitioning to a more modern culture where the left side is defining right and wrong and how to think.

Where is the line on x or y issue. Well we all don't have the same take. We never will. The group will decide what is right and wrong collectively as culture. I'm a dirty old Sailor who thinks its stupid that Hooters can't only hire hot chicks that fit what they want for their business model. You think it's a good thing. Culture agrees with you.

Football is going through all this now. There are many elements at play, from where women fit to whether they should be a priority to fit them in. Does a female GM make sense? You probably think so, I do not. My reasoning is I'd rather see a black dude who played the game get that gig. I think women in football are best served in a role like Kay provides. You disagree, it's cool. Maybe I'm just a dirty old sailor who needs to die and let this new vision of what is right/wrong forge a new and amazing world.

But I'll tell you this: I don't think the result will be what you are looking for. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Not sure where you got the idea that I'm "offended" by anything you wrote or any aspect of this topic.

I'm an employment lawyer, so I find a discussion about hiring practices/criteria interesting. What you stated about the networks' desire to hire people most likely to draw viewers is 100% true. Clearly, the football viewing audience is predominantly (heterosexual) male, which is why they place a higher premium on the visual appeal of female analysts as compared to male analysts (I don't know how anyone could deny this).

Is this a legally valid criteria? Without getting too far down the analytical rabbit hole, it comes down to whether (for lack of a better term) "sex appeal" is a bona fide occupational qualification for female analysts. There have been cases about this over the years. Hooters, for example, battled the EEOC in court over whether their business model allowed them to hire only (hot) women as servers, despite the inherent discriminatory nature of such a policy. If you've been to a Hooters, you can see that they essentially prevailed. On the other hand, SouthWest Airlines tried, many years ago, to make a similar argument to preserve their female flight attendant/"Love Airline" promotion. They lost.

So, again... no offense taken by anyone's perspective. It's just, from my standpoint, an interesting issue. I think the current status quo is that female analysts must have sufficient football knowledge to be credible, so that their appearance is not deemed the sole reason for their presence.

Aren't most of us already aware of how 'privilege' opens doors where the more 'average' among us find barriers, ... and that the privileged often look away when confronted with certain well documented details pertaining to their advantages ? Privilege comes in many forms for men & women, whether it be money, attractiveness, social standing, education, ethnicity, even a man's height or a woman's figure factor into first impressions. And mankind the world over discriminates, it seems it's human nature, not a great quality indeed, but I don't see it changing much any time soon either.
jmo.

 

[AvengerRam]

I'm starting to think you aren't actually reading my posts or, alternatively, you're not reading carefully enough. For example, you just wrote:

Where is the line on x or y issue. Well we all don't have the same take. We never will. The group will decide what is right and wrong collectively as culture. I'm a dirty old Sailor who thinks its stupid that Hooters can't only hire hot chicks that fit what they want for their business model. You think it's a good thing. Culture agrees with you.

FIRST: Hooters CAN only hire hot chicks as servers. The EEOC, in essence, lost that case (technically, it was settled).

SECOND: I don't in any way, shape or form disagree with that outcome.

Would I support the hiring of a female GM? Yes, hypothetically, if she was hired because she climbed the ranks and proved herself (i.e. the way Les Snead went from graduate assistant, to pro scout, to Director of Player Personnel, to GM). I would not support the hiring, though, if it were done for "diversity" purposes and despite the existence of objectively superior candidates.

And you know what... despite what you say, you'd be okay with it too if a female GM helped assemble a Rams team that succeeded. Its a results oriented business, and we fans, in the end, really only care about one thing...

Hot chicks.

Err... I mean winning.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I'm starting to think you aren't actually reading my posts or, alternatively, you're not reading carefully enough. For example, you just wrote:

FIRST: Hooters CAN only hire hot chicks as servers. The EEOC, in essence, lost that case (technically, it was settled).

SECOND: I don't in any way, shape or form disagree with that outcome.

Was it Hooters that changed their hiring designation of these young women to models & entertainers from waitresses/servers ?
Seems I recall some establishment effectively re-writing the rules to get an exemption, although I can't remember if it was Hooters or another organization.

 

[AvengerRam]

Aren't most of us already aware of how 'privilege' opens doors where the more 'average' among us find barriers, ... and that the privileged often look away when confronted with certain well documented details pertaining to their advantages ? Privilege comes in many forms for men & women, whether it be money, attractiveness, social standing, education, ethnicity, even a man's height or a woman's figure factor into first impressions. And mankind the world over discriminates, it seems it's human nature, not a great quality indeed, but I don't see it changing much any time soon either.
jmo.

I don't buy into the whole "privilege" concept. To me, its a circular and unhelpful analytical tool.

As I advise potential clients all the time... I'm not in the "fairness" business, or even the generic "discrimination" business. My job (whether I'm representing an employer or an employee) is to assess whether there is UNLAWFUL discrimination. That's a much narrower concept.

I don't perceive the hiring of attractive female NFL analysts as unlawful, nor should it be, in my opinion. I do think its comical, however, when people (not saying anyone here has done it) suggests that someone like Kay Adams has her job primarily because of her vast football knowledge. To those people, I'd just say... try to be a little more honest.

 

[AvengerRam]

Was it Hooters that changed their hiring designation of these young women to models & entertainers from waitresses/servers ?
Seems I recall some establishment effectively re-writing the rules to get an exemption, although I can't remember if it was Hooters or another organization.

No. They appeased the EEOC by opening up some non-server roles for men, and otherwise it was business as usual.

 

[AvengerRam]

The best part of the Hooters lawsuit was their trolling of the EEOC:

 

[Riverumbbq]

I don't buy into the whole "privilege" concept. To me, its a circular and unhelpful analytical tool.

I hadn't realized you narrowed this discussion down to legally valid criteria, and while that has a sound bearing in a court of law, it really seems rather meaningless when discussing the talking heads for entertainment companies. Fox News created the concept of 'ditzy blonds' attracting male viewership for newsrooms, at least until management was caught in the cookie jar. Young female 'weather girls' worldwide have also been known to have assets other than a degree in meteorology.
I hope you aren't disavowing 'privilege' as part of human behavior, for that I'd have to vehemently disagree.

 

[AvengerRam]

I hadn't realized you narrowed this discussion down to legally valid criteria, and while that has a sound bearing in a court of law, it really seems rather meaningless when discussing the talking heads for entertainment companies. Fox News created the concept of 'ditzy blonds' attracting male viewership for newsrooms, at least until management was caught in the cookie jar. Young female 'weather girls' worldwide have also been known to have assets other than a degree in meteorology.
I hope you aren't disavowing 'privilege' as part of human behavior, for that I'd have to vehemently disagree.

I don't think this is the place for that discussion.

 

[Angry Ram]

If they could find a way to bring Nate back and kick Kyle off as well…would be great

Kyle's a douche.

 

[OldSchool]

So glad people have ruined a thread celebrating her leaving GMFB with their own bullshit.

 

[AvengerRam]

So glad people have ruined a thread celebrating her leaving GMFB with their own bullshit.

Guess we just needed something to occupy us until they release the schedule.