Arch Manning and Matt Stafford: Rams sources talk succession plan with Charles Robinson (Staff's back makes an appearance)

[Ground Chuck]

Sh!t-canning for Manning! Let’s do it boys!

-Les Snead

 

[PARAM]

More importantly though, I find it hard to believe any GM that values his job, wants to be the one that trades away Arch Manning.

I think any GM would be even more reticent to draft two stellar QBs in consecutive years, only to ruin both of them with a shitty team around them.

 

[dieterbrock]

Every time I see someone suggest that Arch could pull an Elway/Manning and force a trade to the Rams, it makes me absolutely cringe.
Because Elway/Manning had nothing to do with where they ended up
Sure, he could refuse to sign with whoever drafts him like those guys did. But neither Elway nor Manning had any say in where they were traded to, Elway wanted a warm coast and Eli wanted to play in the South.
Both the Giants and Broncos had the 4th pick in the draft to offer in a swap, and an overwhelming package on top of that. They offered the best deal which is why both teams got their guy
We all hope Atlanta craps the bed, and if the Rams get a top 5 pick it will be a great spot to be regardless.
If Atlanta ends up in the middle of the 1st round, say 12-20, there's no way they get the #1 overall

 

[RamFan503]

It's EARLY in camp but Williams not looking good so far with Johnson... And Williams problems are things McVay would not particularly like though I think his offense isn't quite as complicated as Johnson's so maybe McVay could not overwhelm the kid and reign in his off schedule tendencies - which are more about just playing off schedule but also not doing it smartly these days.

Wait. Johnson’s offense is more complicated than McVay’s? It was noted many times that McVay had to dumb down the offense for Goff, yet Goff was able to run Johnson’s offense. It doesn’t add up. What makes you think Johnson’s offense is more complicated?

 

[WestCoastRam]

Wait. Johnson’s offense is more complicated than McVay’s? It was noted many times that McVay had to dumb down the offense for Goff, yet Goff was able to run Johnson’s offense. It doesn’t add up. What makes you think Johnson’s offense is more complicated?

On some level I think we're quibbling over a not particularly HUGE disparity here but from what I remember it wasn't so much that McVay was dumbing down his offense for Goff - he did in the beginning, call coverages for Goff in the headset - but the offense didn't change until he began to ask Goff to do more drop back passing which Goff really struggled with. An offense focused on more drop back passing will many times - not always, see Rodgers - be more complicated than one that uses play action more often. Johnson has a much more extensive drop back game than McVay and also has a crap ton more plays in the playbook than McVay that players need to know thereby making it more complicated. Everyone expected Goff to flame out but a testament to Johnson is that even by asking Goff to drop back more AND adding so many more plays, he was able to improve that aspect of Goff's game where McVay couldn't.

This is not a knock on McVay, he couldn't take Goff to the next level. Johnson did (to a point, Goff still shits the bed sometimes, see Wash game from last year). It's just that McVay has a great offense that probably sits in the middle of the pack in terms of how complicated it is BUT not how deceptive (making everything look the same) or innovative it is (by changing running schemes or adding new play designs that fit into his offense).

The somewhat simplicity of the offense is why the McVay/Shannahan offense tends to make guys like Purdy look better than they actually are.

Edit: When I hear most football analysts talk about "drop back passing" they are referring to 3-5-7 step drop passing, no play-action and sometimes shotgun (which can make it confusing) and that's how I'm using it here. McVay/Shannahan offense has always had a smaller level of drop back passing in it though that has expanded some for McVay in the last few years with Stafford but still from what I understand not as extensive as say Payton, Reid, Johnson and a few others. Part of the issue is, with such an emphasis on the run game AND it's marriage to play-action and making many drop back plays look deceptively the same, there's not enough time in practice to practice a bigger drop back passing game overall.

Double edit: One of the many parts of the cyclical nature of the NFL is how pure drop back passing (no shotgun) is coming back into vogue as LBs are so used to play-action and shot gun, they are not as used to playing their keys or getting to the right spot in their drops against it and some teams are adding more 3-5-7 step drops back into their offenses to gain a slight advantage. Will be interesting to see if McVay does it more but again, you only have so much practice time.

 

[AZRams]

I have my share of fantasies ... Most relate to the Boobie and Booty threads; and, similar cultural sites.

Also have a couple Rams-related dreams ... and one involves Joe Burrow ... Joe and I are both fully clothed so get your mind-out-of-the gutter @Loyal.

In this dream, the Bengals disappoint again in 2025; and, I think that's realistic because their Defense may be poor again, and their O-Line and running game merely average. Burrow, Chase and Higgins could put-up huge numbers but it won't translate to wins and a playoff spot.

Maybe Zac Taylor is let go after three straight non-playoff seasons. Maybe the new-HC is a defensive guy.

Burrow's frustrations grow.

Another disappointing season in 2026 would make no playoff appearance in Four straight seasons, and Burrow will be 31-years old in 2027. At that point, he may aggressively push to get out of Cincinnati; and
the Bengals will not want to move him to another AFC team.

I like for my fantasies and dreams to have some ... Very Small Component of being Realistically Possible ...
OK, maybe not the Boobie and Booty fantasies. I let my imagination run-wild there.

It's very rare an elite-QB becomes available but Burrow may be on that road.
Don't envision it for a couple more seasons ... BUT ...

Cultural sites...LMAO

 

[RamFan503]

On some level I think we're quibbling over a not particularly HUGE disparity here but from what I remember it wasn't so much that McVay was dumbing down his offense for Goff - he did in the beginning, call coverages for Goff in the headset - but the offense didn't change until he began to ask Goff to do more drop back passing which Goff really struggled with. An offense focused on more drop back passing will many times - not always, see Rodgers - be more complicated than one that uses play action more often. Johnson has a much more extensive drop back game than McVay and also has a crap ton more plays in the playbook than McVay that players need to know thereby making it more complicated. Everyone expected Goff to flame out but a testament to Johnson is that even by asking Goff to drop back more AND adding so many more plays, he was able to improve that aspect of Goff's game where McVay couldn't.

This is not a knock on McVay, he couldn't take Goff to the next level. Johnson did (to a point, Goff still shits the bed sometimes, see Wash game from last year). It's just that McVay has a great offense that probably sits in the middle of the pack in terms of how complicated it is BUT not how deceptive (making everything look the same) or innovative it is (by changing running schemes or adding new play designs that fit into his offense).

The somewhat simplicity of the offense is why the McVay/Shannahan offense tends to make guys like Purdy look better than they actually are.

Edit: When I hear most football analysts talk about "drop back passing" they are referring to 3-5-7 step drop passing, no play-action and sometimes shotgun (which can make it confusing) and that's how I'm using it here. McVay/Shannahan offense has always had a smaller level of drop back passing in it though that has expanded some for McVay in the last few years with Stafford but still from what I understand not as extensive as say Payton, Reid, Johnson and a few others. Part of the issue is, with such an emphasis on the run game AND it's marriage to play-action and making many drop back plays look deceptively the same, there's not enough time in practice to practice a bigger drop back passing game overall.

Double edit: One of the many parts of the cyclical nature of the NFL is how pure drop back passing (no shotgun) is coming back into vogue as LBs are so used to play-action and shot gun, they are not as used to playing their keys or getting to the right spot in their drops against it and some teams are adding more 3-5-7 step drops back into their offenses to gain a slight advantage. Will be interesting to see if McVay does it more but again, you only have so much practice time.

I dunno man. I remember hearing from numerous players how complex McVay's offense is. I think I'll go with that. When a player comes from another team and makes that kind of comment, it holds a lot more water with me. And the very reason McVay went after a known cerebral QB in Stafford was BECAUSE Goff couldn't run his offense. The idea that Johnson somehow elevated Goff's intelligence is hard to fathom. Our offense is nothing like Ratface's. So I don't see the correlation there either.

Just because McVay uses similar formations and disguises plays, doesn't make it simpler. Quite the contrary actually. I remember Kupp (arguably, one of the most cerebral WRs I've ever seen) talking about several plays including the 4th and 1 play in the SB and saying how they practiced the hell out of these plays and had a hell of a time getting them right in practice. I wonder why that would be.

And BTW - Yes. McVay did dumb down the offense. He cut down reads, called plays to only one side of the field, he had to be in his headset constantly early on while he had Todd effin Gurley in the backfield. There were many ways he tried to make the offense simpler for Goff. After that, Goff and McVay's relationship seemed to sour and I think it took a shock like being traded to pull Goff's head out of his ass.

Johnson had an absolutely stacked team - great O-line, double barreled running game, very good TE, two very good receivers, and a decent QB.

Don't you find it interesting to see how few Rams players leave the Rams and do anything after that?

 

[WestCoastRam]

I dunno man. I remember hearing from numerous players how complex McVay's offense is. I think I'll go with that. When a player comes from another team and makes that kind of comment, it holds a lot more water with me. And the very reason McVay went after a known cerebral QB in Stafford was BECAUSE Goff couldn't run his offense. The idea that Johnson somehow elevated Goff's intelligence is hard to fathom. Our offense is nothing like Ratface's. So I don't see the correlation there either.

Just because McVay uses similar formations and disguises plays, doesn't make it simpler. Quite the contrary actually. I remember Kupp (arguably, one of the most cerebral WRs I've ever seen) talking about several plays including the 4th and 1 play in the SB and saying how they practiced the hell out of these plays and had a hell of a time getting them right in practice. I wonder why that would be.

And BTW - Yes. McVay did dumb down the offense. He cut down reads, called plays to only one side of the field, he had to be in his headset constantly early on while he had Todd effin Gurley in the backfield. There were many ways he tried to make the offense simpler for Goff. After that, Goff and McVay's relationship seemed to sour and I think it took a shock like being traded to pull Goff's head out of his ass.

Johnson had an absolutely stacked team - great O-line, double barreled running game, very good TE, two very good receivers, and a decent QB.

Don't you find it interesting to see how few Rams players leave the Rams and do anything after that?

Just to reiterate, it's not that McVay doesn't have a complex offense - I'd say it's top 10-15 in complexity - just not that it's as complex as Johnson or say Reid, Payton's (or Josh McDaniel's but funny to include him in here with his limited success).

Also, I think it bears saying that complex is not a synonym for good or best necessarily.

Edit: In the vein of your argument above but using a different example: while Payton's offense is the more complex in personnel, diversity of plays, drop back game it has significantly been pared down for Nix. I would argue that the play calls and some of the responsibilities aren't as diverse but many of the concepts remain just as complex. It's very easy to get into the weeds here on what complex means at any given moment.

 

[Rambitious1]

I have wondered whether Trevor Lawrence might be available after the season. I will throw another crazy one at you. Could Caleb Williams be available to be fixed by Sean if things go sideways in Chicago?

I believe Caleb Williams will be available in the coming years.
And my answer to the Rams acquiring him is………..

 

[gogoat1]

I have wondered whether Trevor Lawrence might be available after the season. I will throw another crazy one at you. Could Caleb Williams be available to be fixed by Sean if things go sideways in Chicago?

Caleb sucks, run first guy.
Trevor for the right price, Sean could work with him IMO. Looked like a stud his rookie year against us. Then he went south. Bad coaching.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Caleb sucks, run first guy.
Trevor for the right price, Sean could work with him IMO. Looked like a stud his rookie year against us. Then he went south. Bad coaching.

But now he has good coaching.

There's no better example than Baker Mayfield.

.

 

[Allen2McVay]

Caleb sucks, run first guy.

Might turn-out to be right but it's WAY-early to be sure.

 

[Noregar]

I think Goff's improvement had less to do with the systems and more about focus. I think once he got traded Goff became a more dedicated player and different guy mentally. He was hungrier and wanted to prove the Rams wrong. That is a strong motivator,

I think Goff got complacent with the Rams. He signed his big contract a had hot girlfriend and life was good so he relaxed a bit (human nature). Getting traded refocused him and humbled him a bit.

I liked Goff as the Ram's QB and he has demonstrated he can be a very good QB but he will never be at Stafford's level either. Goff does well when he has a strong running game. His best days as a Ram were with a back like Gurley and now the Lions also a have a really strong run game. When the talent fell off with the Rams at RB and along the OL Goff did struggle more, whereas someone like Stafford can do more with less.

As to young Arch Manning, it will be almost impossible to trade up to number 1 to get him if the team at that has that pick also needs a QB (captain obvious), which could likely be the case. If things fall into place maybe the Rams can swing deal for him but a lot has to go right for that to happen.

 

[dieterbrock]

Caleb sucks, run first guy.
Trevor for the right price, Sean could work with him IMO. Looked like a stud his rookie year against us. Then he went south. Bad coaching.

He's making 50+ mill per year thru 2030
No way Rams are taking on that salary while hoping to "fix" him

 

[WestCoastRam]

Caleb sucks, run first guy.
Trevor for the right price, Sean could work with him IMO. Looked like a stud his rookie year against us. Then he went south. Bad coaching.

Aaaaaand never watched Caleb play, have you?

Does no one watch other football besides the Rams?

 

[PARAM]

About the "where will the Rams be and how high will they be able to move, if they are going to draft a QB next year"........

Teams that probably won't be drafting a QB next year:

(20) Tennessee, NY Giants, Chicago, Washington, New England, Atlanta, Minnesota, Denver, Green Bay, Philadelphia, Buffalo, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Houston, Kansas City, LA Chargers, Tampa Bay, Detroit, Dallas, San Francisco.

Teams who may be looking to draft a QB next year.
(5) Jacksonville, Carolina, Seattle, Arizona, Miami

Teams that probably will be looking to draft a QB next year:

(6) New Orleans, NY Jets, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Las Vegas

So there could be 11 teams looking to possibly draft a QB next year. 12, if the Rams are also in the market, which seems to be the consensus of Rams fans. One (Jacksonville) is without a first round pick. So of those other 10 teams, who has a good chance to be #1, #2 and #3? I don't think Pittsburgh because they've never had a losing season under Tomlin. I dislike Pete Carroll but I don't think Las Vegas will be top 3 in the draft. Likewise for Seattle, Arizona and Miami. Steichen in Indy is coaching for his life this year but they could still suck big time.

So by my estimation, that leaves Carolina, the Jets, the Saints, Cleveland and Indy as possible candidates for the top 3 spots. Cleveland has 2 first round picks. In my mind, that makes it almost impossible for the Rams to get ahead of all 5 of them to draft Manning. But maybe the #2 QB? Or maybe none at all if Stafford commits to 2026, which would be a dream scenario coupled with Arch Manning deciding to stay in school for 2026. The Rams could trade one of their #1's away for a 2027 #1 (or both and end up with three #1's in 2027) and possibly be in the drivers seat for A.M.

 

[WestCoastRam]

About the "where will the Rams be and how high will they be able to move, if they are going to draft a QB next year"........

Teams that probably won't be drafting a QB next year:

(20) Tennessee, NY Giants, Chicago, Washington, New England, Atlanta, Minnesota, Denver, Green Bay, Philadelphia, Buffalo, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Houston, Kansas City, LA Chargers, Tampa Bay, Detroit, Dallas, San Francisco.

Teams who may be looking to draft a QB next year.
(5) Jacksonville, Carolina, Seattle, Arizona, Miami

Teams that probably will be looking to draft a QB next year:

(6) New Orleans, NY Jets, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Las Vegas

So there could be 11 teams looking to possibly draft a QB next year. 12, if the Rams are also in the market, which seems to be the consensus of Rams fans. One (Jacksonville) is without a first round pick. So of those other 10 teams, who has a good chance to be #1, #2 and #3? I don't think Pittsburgh because they've never had a losing season under Tomlin. I dislike Pete Carroll but I don't think Las Vegas will be top 3 in the draft. Likewise for Seattle, Arizona and Miami. Steichen in Indy is coaching for his life this year but they could still suck big time.

So by my estimation, that leaves Carolina, the Jets, the Saints, Cleveland and Indy as possible candidates for the top 3 spots. Cleveland has 2 first round picks. In my mind, that makes it almost impossible for the Rams to get ahead of all 5 of them to draft Manning. But maybe the #2 QB? Or maybe none at all if Stafford commits to 2026, which would be a dream scenario coupled with Arch Manning deciding to stay in school for 2026. The Rams could trade one of their #1's away for a 2027 #1 (or both and end up with three #1's in 2027) and possibly be in the drivers seat for A.M.

Very cool write up. There's an interesting world where: an already improving offense in ARI gets Murray a reprieve, a good HC/OC gets Lawrence to the next level, Bryce Young in CAR improves just enough - he had a decent to last year - and Richardson shows enough this year in INDY where it clears the decks somewhat for us.

I disagree on Vegas though, Geno has proven to be a top 15 QB, unless wheels fall off him or they end up with a high pick regardless, think he's the starter for next 2-3 years.

 

[PARAM]

Very cool write up. There's an interesting world where: an already improving offense in ARI gets Murray a reprieve, a good HC/OC gets Lawrence to the next level, Bryce Young in CAR improves just enough - he had a decent to last year - and Richardson shows enough this year in INDY where it clears the decks somewhat for us.

I disagree on Vegas though, Geno has proven to be a top 15 QB, unless wheels fall off him or they end up with a high pick regardless, think he's the starter for next 2-3 years.

Interesting ideas on Lawrence, Young and Richardson. That would definitely benefit the Rams IF they were going QB in 2026. Theoretically, that would leave New Orleans, NY Jets, Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Interesting ideas on Lawrence, Young and Richardson. That would definitely benefit the Rams IF they were going QB in 2026. Theoretically, that would leave New Orleans, NY Jets, Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

I think Lawrence and Young will likely make it hard for those teams to draft a QB and expect them to not necessarily be at the top of the draft this year. Richardson will most likely look middling this year though, there's a very slim lane for him to be good and make the Colts stay with him.

 

[Loyal]

Man, Lawrence was a guy everyone got wrong. Was supposed to be generational talent. Sure, he really got screwed with coaching and talent issues but you still think he should have been better.

Also, I'd be willing to give up a shit ton of picks for Burrow but very little chance of happening...

Oh Trevor, you are our only hope... ~ @WestCoastRam /Prince Leon