What’s going on with our Rams secondary?

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Rams43

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Where’s the development of youngsters?

Why does Ramsey seem to be regressing?

Why can’t Rochell, Durant, and Lake even sniff the field? It’s certainly not because Kendrick, Long, and Rapp are playing lights out.

Do we have an asst coaching problem? Seems like a helluva stretch to suggest that Snead drafted so many inadequate secondary players, don’t you think? Can’t keep using the injury excuse anymore in our secondary.

Scheme, players, or coaching? Which is it? Or is it all of them?

Results, baby. We’re not getting results in our secondary among other position groups. Sigh…
 

Kupped

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Where’s the development of youngsters?

Why does Ramsey seem to be regressing?

Why can’t Rochell, Durant, and Lake even sniff the field? It’s certainly not because Kendrick, Long, and Rapp are playing lights out.

Do we have an asst coaching problem? Seems like a helluva stretch to suggest that Snead drafted so many inadequate secondary players, don’t you think? Can’t keep using the injury excuse anymore in our secondary.

Scheme, players, or coaching? Which is it? Or is it all of them?

Results, baby. We’re not getting results in our secondary among other position groups. Sigh…
A couple of thoughts..
I agree.. where are Rochell and Durant, specifically? Lake's been injured for a long time, so I have minimal hopes of seeing him do much this season.
I'd like to see Yeast get in there more.

This secondary isn't what I'd call good.. but I think things could get much worse by just throwing a bunch of young guys out there at the same time. You want them to learn. I think ramping them up, mixing them in, would be great.

I know no one likes Rapp.. but he's not nearly as bad as they hype train on this site. He does some things well and knows the defense.

Ramsey is getting older. It happens. But he'll be a helluva safety for a few years, imo.

The scheme plays primarily zone... I say that's because they have no one, other than Ramsey, who can really play press. Others disagree.
 

AvengerRam

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"I'm a fan, and based upon my casual observations, I think that, perhaps, the best players are not playing or, at least, players with more upside than the ones on the field are not getting sufficient playing time. It must be that someone on the coaching staff is borderline incompetent."

Is that how it works?

Look... coaches are fallible. That's why many of them fail, and they're frequently fired.

But they still know more than we do.

I don't know what they're seeing from Rochell or Durant in practice, or in their in-depth evaluation of game tapes. So I'm not prepared to condemn the coaching or scouting.

I will offer another possibility, though...

The offense is historically inept, and puts a massive amount of pressure on the defense. The pass rush has been lacking (we've discussed ad nauseum whether its a lack of quality pass rushers, the scheme, or both, so I'm not going to elaborate there). So, perhaps, the DBs are playing at an extremely high level of difficulty.

Sorry if that analysis does not let us hone in on one or two guys and call for their heads.

Sometimes, its just not that simple.
 

Jacobarch

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Where’s the development of youngsters?

Why does Ramsey seem to be regressing?

Why can’t Rochell, Durant, and Lake even sniff the field? It’s certainly not because Kendrick, Long, and Rapp are playing lights out.

Do we have an asst coaching problem? Seems like a helluva stretch to suggest that Snead drafted so many inadequate secondary players, don’t you think? Can’t keep using the injury excuse anymore in our secondary.

Scheme, players, or coaching? Which is it? Or is it all of them?

Results, baby. We’re not getting results in our secondary among other position groups. Sigh…

Here's my take on this...

Since Staley came aboard the Rams in 20' the Rams adopted his Defense. Which is primarily zone, with a star player essentially roaming the field as a type of hybrid SS/LB following the opposing QB's eyes. Ramsey is the logical player for this position. He has a nose for the ball and can lay the wood when playing at the LOS. I can remember a handful of games where he came up with the INT to seal the game.
Staley was the Commode and chief of this defense, you could tell McVay was hands off and let him do his thing. He's honestly one hell of a defensive mind... Now we have to remember that Morris inherited this defense, and it's scheme, and for whatever reason McVay wanted to keep this defensive scheme intact with the hire of Morris. Morris didn't call this type of defensive scheme when calling plays for the Bucs or Atlanta. While he did run a zone heavy D he did not incorporate the star role until he came to the Rams. So this is not his bread n butter
The reason why I'm bringing this up is, this is now McVays defense. He obviously made the decision for better or worse to continue with this scheme. With the loss of players like D Williams, Fuller (to injury), SJD, and Von Miller etc this defense had no chance of being what is what last year or years prior. Not to mention players are now exiting their primes and will continue to age and slow.
I believe the Rams woes are based on losing personnel, players aging out, and Raheem not play calling to his strengths.

As far as Ramsey losing a step. I think not. I think he's a victim of his own success. While playing with the Jags, and when brought over to the Rams he was mainly man vs the other teams top WR/TE threat. Obviously that changed when the Rams defensive scheme changed. But in short, I'm a believer if you're not solely working on that craft you will become rusty and a liability, which we have seen over the last two seasons when Ramsey switches over to man coverage.

My main conclusion about this is the Rams are playing the Wrong scheme. This scheme is solely setup to play when playing with a lead. Which is a whole other discussion. But announcer after announcer some of whom are ex QB's say this about the Rams. Keep playing ten yards off the ball every play and the offenses are going to slowly drive the ball down the field. And that gentlemen is exactly what we're seeing. Death by a thousand paper cuts.



A couple of thoughts..
I agree.. where are Rochell and Durant, specifically? Lake's been injured for a long time, so I have minimal hopes of seeing him do much this season.
I'd like to see Yeast get in there more.

This secondary isn't what I'd call good.. but I think things could get much worse by just throwing a bunch of young guys out there at the same time. You want them to learn. I think ramping them up, mixing them in, would be great.

I know no one likes Rapp.. but he's not nearly as bad as they hype train on this site. He does some things well and knows the defense.

Ramsey is getting older. It happens. But he'll be a helluva safety for a few years, imo.

The scheme plays primarily zone... I say that's because they have no one, other than Ramsey, who can really play press. Others disagree.

Coaches are often wrong about playing one player over another. Take Evans for example, the man shouldn't be on a NFL roster. Yet the Rams have kept him now for 3 seasons in hopes he would develop. But facts are he's been a hinderance in every way possible. The only reason why he's still on the roster is because he's a 3rd round pick and optics are important to a HC and GM.

Rapp, is another player who is either playing out of position or should be a back role type player. One thing I'll say about Rapp is he looked a hell of a lot better when playing with Staley in his rookie season vs Morris. So I'm gonna chalk that one up to the Rams failing to develop a decent player and Morris being out of his element with this defensive scheme, See above.

"I'm a fan, and based upon my casual observations, I think that, perhaps, the best players are not playing or, at least, players with more upside than the ones on the field are not getting sufficient playing time. It must be that someone on the coaching staff is borderline incompetent."

Is that how it works?

Look... coaches are fallible. That's why many of them fail, and they're frequently fired.

But they still know more than we do.

I don't know what they're seeing from Rochell or Durant in practice, or in their in-depth evaluation of game tapes. So I'm not prepared to condemn the coaching or scouting.

I will offer another possibility, though...

The offense is historically inept, and puts a massive amount of pressure on the defense. The pass rush has been lacking (we've discussed ad nauseum whether its a lack of quality pass rushers, the scheme, or both, so I'm not going to elaborate there). So, perhaps, the DBs are playing at an extremely high level of difficulty.

Sorry if that analysis does not let us hone in on one or two guys and call for their heads.

Sometimes, its just not that simple.

Sometimes I wonder if coaches know more than some of the Fans. X's and O's they surely know more than we do. But at times, many times in fact coaches keep players playing above others due to their draft status, rather than on the field success. I mean I could name a hundred players that were top picks that flunked out of the NFL. So yes coaches are very fallible as you pointed out. Coaches often get into trouble or fired because as I pointed out above. optics.
A coach I like to use as an example of this is Pete Carrol. Matt Flynn and Russel Wilson, by all accounts Flynn was supposed to be the Seahawks starting QB of the future. The Hawks drafted Wilson in the 2012 3rd round as a potential fail safe or backup and the rest is history.
Point is Coaches like Carrol don't give a shit about optics and his record speaks for itself. Love him or hate him, he's a great coach and talent evaluator. I mean look what he did with Geno Smith this year. A QB destined to ride the bench for his career is now one of the best QB's in the NFL. This isn't by luck.
 
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Malibu

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My thoughts are several factors.

No pass rush so the dbs need to hold up longer

Bad scheme too soft on dbs off the ball.

Bad scheme no blitzing of of opposing QBs.

Bad scheme most DCs are throwing short passes which means if the Rams put 8 in the box and crowded the 4-8 yard throwing lanes we would see better results.

Keeping the wrong dbs on the field Kendricks specifically he is terrible.
 

FaulkSF

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@Malibu Kendricks isn't terrible, he's a rookie. He represents an upgrade of Reeder, Rapp, and Fuller in coverage. When was the last time Hill or Long made a splash play?

Kendricks isn't awful, he just needs time to develop. He may have a similar career path as Carlton Davis III who had a forgettable rookie season.
 

Tano

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Kendricks isn't awful, he just needs time to develop. He may have a similar career path as Carlton Davis III who had a forgettable rookie season.
I would never put Kendricks on the outside receiver.

I would always put him on the slot receiver.
 

Merlin

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First off with the corners you have to look at time onboard. Why is Long still getting so much playing time when he's been around and has shown that he is a JAG. Rochell at least is on the bench where he belongs. Neither of these two are going to do a damn thing in this league. It's over for them.

Rookies meanwhile are going to make mistakes. Especially when you take a physically limited player like Kendricks and stick him outside the hash with our safeties offering zero support. I think if you play Kendricks inside at the slot he would be just fine.

Ramsey needs to be outside the hash but you have to pick who he goes 1v1 on. If you isolate him on a top receiver he will get BBQ'd. Let him travel with a WR2 type and that's one player you shouldn't have to worry about. Not ideal, but in terms of usage that is the approach you want in order to get consistency from him at this point in his career.

Durant is on the bench because he tackles like Deion. But at this point it's the pass game that is killing us so play him. And play him outside the hash and let him take his knocks on those quick passes teams will try on him. He has actual cover skills and should be used to remove a weapon that scares you in coverage, stick him on that weapon in man

Hill is inconsistent but he's been our best corner.

Depth-wise we have a decent corner group. It's the production at the top that is killing us. Part of that is usage. Part of it is players having their heads up their asses. And part of it is the safeties who have been terrible.

Safety might be our biggest need on defense. Depends on how the Rams envision this secondary playing next season. But either way it's a big need. You're not going to win snaps with Rapp in coverage and Scott has his moments but both those guys are meatheads who are best used in classic SS roles.
 

Juice

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Are Rapp, and Long in a contract year? Do you think a team would play a player more if they were in a contract year rather than others on the team. Just curious.
 

oldnotdead

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People are in denial about Morris. He plays his buddies talent be damned. He was that way in Atlanta and he's that way here. Rochell's best in man coverage. He has the speed, agility, and length to play as a boundary CB. He was really beginning to develop before he got hurt and Morris fell in love with Kendricks, who has shown why he dropped like a stone in the draft. He's extremely limited in his skill set. I've been saying since day one he's too fucking slow and we keep seeing ample evidence of that every damn week. Both Rochell and Durant are 4.3 runners yet Morris loves Derion's 4.7 speed, David Long ran a 4.8 at his pro day and worst of all had a 1.65 10 yd split (it measures acceleration from a stop, Nick Bosa a big Edge ran 1.55 in his 10 yd split) As we have seen Long has long speed but he lacks the burst or acceleration to stay with a WR who gets by him. AD has a 1.59 10 yd time and he was 285 lbs when he ran it. This is why David Long struggles and why Kendrick is mismatched by even average WRs.

The problem in the secondary is the scheme and the lack of compatibility of the players Morris chooses to play. If you are going to play a 10 yd cushion at the LOS your CBs need exceptional acceleration. Long and Kendricks absolutely don't have it. But of course, as Morris himself said....he doesn't give a damn what people think.
 

Ellard80

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well fuller being hurt doesnt help

need to get rid of Rapp he fucking blows.

He can hammer someone getting tackled in a run box... but in the open field he either whiffs or backs off and lets the guy gain 8 yards.

and he can't cover anyone 5 yards down the field.

he isn't good
 

oldnotdead

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Rapp is scheme dependent. He was a standout as a rookie under Wade Phillips system. Wade played him as an in the box SS, which is how he was played in college. But Morris has him playing 10 - 15 yds off the LOS. Rapp doesn't have the speed or acceleration ( 4.78 40 with a 1.61 10 yd split). He also has short arms (30.5") which is why you want him to play in the box and why he's going to miss a lot of tackles in space. Playing him in the box plays to his strength which is playing with anticipation allowing him to flow with the play not try to catch up to the play. Again stupid DC who won't play to his strengths, but rather forces him to play to his weaknesses. THAT IS A MAJOR COMPONENT AS TO WHY MORRIS SUCKS.

Kendrick lacks long speed and acceleration. So Morris will play him in man coverage 10 yds off the LOS. The WR is already at full speed when he blows by Derion. Again Morris playing the wrong guy in the wrong scheme. Rochell is the CB you want when he plays man coverage, not Kendrick, Long or Hill who are outmatched by even average WRs.

Last year Morris got away with a lot because they played a softer schedule. But playing a first place schedule has exposed the fallacy of his base prevent scheme (his good enough scheme). This past game Morris played more man coverages and the defense played better despite playing his zone CBs keeping his man coverage CBs on the bench (Rochell and Durant). Stupid coaching is all that it is.
 

oldnotdead

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Kendricks isn't terrible, he's a rookie. He represents an upgrade of Reeder, Rapp, and Fuller in coverage.

Kendrick is being played as an outside CB. Reeder was an ILB, and Rapp and Fuller both are SS, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Scott is the only real FS (deep safety) on the roster. They drafted Lake because he's an upgrade in terms of upsides to both Rapp and Fuller. Fuller timed at 4.67 in the 40 with a 10 yd split of 1.64 both being slower than you want for a starter. As old as Weddle is he was still faster and quicker than Fuller or Rapp. Quentin Lake is 6'1", 200 lbs timed at 4.59 in the 40 but more importantly, 1.56 in his 10 yd split shows he's not a long strider for his height with good acceleration. He's a better matchup for a Y WR.

I would hope that next year it would be Ramsey and Rochell outside, Durant at SCB, and Lake and Scott at safeties. Lake can play that intermediate zone or drop down and cover a TE or Y WR. Kendrick is a backup level CB IMO not a starter. Sure he's a rookie this year but his problems are that he's physically outmatched and will always require a safety over the top.
 

BonifayRam

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Whats going on with the Rams Secondary?

DC Morris is sitting the dinner table each Sunday with a milk toast meal for the NFL offenses to eat & enjoy.

I do not understand why...his defense has faired much better with injuries than the offense.

Are Rapp, and Long in a contract year? Do you think a team would play a player more if they were in a contract year rather than others on the team. Just curious.

My thoughts ......this is the best (Long/Rapp) can be.

IMO neither are starting material in the NFL. I will be very happy to see them playing elsewhere in 2023.
 
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So Ram

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Whats going on with the Rams Secondary?

DC Morris is sitting the dinner table each Sunday with a milk toast meal for the NFL offenses to eat & enjoy.

I do not understand why...his defense has faired much better with injuries than the offense.



My thoughts ......this is the best (Long/Rapp) can be.

IMO neither are starting material in the NFL. I will be very happy to see them playing elsewhere in 2023.

Agree - Bonifay’d did you see the interviews with AJ & Nick ?

I draw a parallel to them. Nick is a STUD & has developed into a Leader even around The NFL on his stance on playing turf & maybe why AD99 sits out with injury. He might even blame the surface with The backing of The NFL PU?

My point is the 3 DB’s were seated in 2019 together. Nick Scott being a MUST KEEP player.
AJ Arcuri is a guy I was HIGH on during training camp. Both players were 7th rd picks. IMO AJ in 3 years is a ascending & a valuable player on the Offensive line.

What about RR31 & Durant ? IMO The Rams want Comp picks for D. Long & Rapp. We have seen in the past how much interest Rams players can have in the open market.The hope is Nick Scott remains a Ram,but time will tell
& this has been my thought all season about the comp picks for those 3 2019 Ram draft picks.
 

Kupped

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Here's my take on this...

Since Staley came aboard the Rams in 20' the Rams adopted his Defense. Which is primarily zone, with a star player essentially roaming the field as a type of hybrid SS/LB following the opposing QB's eyes. Ramsey is the logical player for this position. He has a nose for the ball and can lay the wood when playing at the LOS. I can remember a handful of games where he came up with the INT to seal the game.
Staley was the Commode and chief of this defense, you could tell McVay was hands off and let him do his thing. He's honestly one hell of a defensive mind... Now we have to remember that Morris inherited this defense, and it's scheme, and for whatever reason McVay wanted to keep this defensive scheme intact with the hire of Morris. Morris didn't call this type of defensive scheme when calling plays for the Bucs or Atlanta. While he did run a zone heavy D he did not incorporate the star role until he came to the Rams. So this is not his bread n butter
The reason why I'm bringing this up is, this is now McVays defense. He obviously made the decision for better or worse to continue with this scheme. With the loss of players like D Williams, Fuller (to injury), SJD, and Von Miller etc this defense had no chance of being what is what last year or years prior. Not to mention players are now exiting their primes and will continue to age and slow.
I believe the Rams woes are based on losing personnel, players aging out, and Raheem not play calling to his strengths.

As far as Ramsey losing a step. I think not. I think he's a victim of his own success. While playing with the Jags, and when brought over to the Rams he was mainly man vs the other teams top WR/TE threat. Obviously that changed when the Rams defensive scheme changed. But in short, I'm a believer if you're not solely working on that craft you will become rusty and a liability, which we have seen over the last two seasons when Ramsey switches over to man coverage.

My main conclusion about this is the Rams are playing the Wrong scheme. This scheme is solely setup to play when playing with a lead. Which is a whole other discussion. But announcer after announcer some of whom are ex QB's say this about the Rams. Keep playing ten yards off the ball every play and the offenses are going to slowly drive the ball down the field. And that gentlemen is exactly what we're seeing. Death by a thousand paper cuts.
If Staley is so superior a defensive mind to Morris.. why have Morris' Rams defenses consistently outperformed Staley's Chargrers defenses?
Morris certainly seemed to be doing fine last year, when they had all the pieces in place. For some reason, people don't want to acknowledge that there's been a drop-off in talent at key spots.. specifically edge rusher and #2 Corner.. and, in at Safety.. where Fuller has been out all year and there's no Weddle replacing him. You acknowledge the personnel turnover, so we're on the same page there.
I repeatedly see people saying the Rams need to play more press coverage.. fine.. but I've seen nothing from Long, Hill, Kendricks, Rochell or Durant that makes me believe they won't get torched repeatedly if put in that position.
The idea for this defense.. and it's one MANY, if not most of the NFL is adopting.. is take away explosive plays. Yeah.. it looks lame.. but teams do it.. the Rams just do it more.
As for what announcers say.. well.. Olsen said on the broadcast last week that the #1 thing you must do agains the Chiefs is take away the explosive plays.. and he praised the Rams for doing so.
The games where the Rams D looked like shit? They gave up multiple explosive plays. Against the Saints.. they just looked like they gave up.. no communication, no fire. It was awful.
Coaches are often wrong about playing one player over another. Take Evans for example, the man shouldn't be on a NFL roster. Yet the Rams have kept him now for 3 seasons in hopes he would develop. But facts are he's been a hinderance in every way possible. The only reason why he's still on the roster is because he's a 3rd round pick and optics are important to a HC and GM.

Rapp, is another player who is either playing out of position or should be a back role type player. One thing I'll say about Rapp is he looked a hell of a lot better when playing with Staley in his rookie season vs Morris. So I'm gonna chalk that one up to the Rams failing to develop a decent player and Morris being out of his element with this defensive scheme, See above.
They MAY be wrong.. but they MAY be right.
Evans wouldn't have been on the roster this year if not for injuries.
Rapp didn't play much at all with Staley.. he was out injured much of that season.. it was his LEAST productive season in the NFL.
As bad as people think Rapp is.. it wasn't until Fuller was injured and Rapp got a concussion against the Niners in the regular season finale last year that the defense fell apart.


Sometimes I wonder if coaches know more than some of the Fans. X's and O's they surely know more than we do. But at times, many times in fact coaches keep players playing above others due to their draft status, rather than on the field success. I mean I could name a hundred players that were top picks that flunked out of the NFL. So yes coaches are very fallible as you pointed out. Coaches often get into trouble or fired because as I pointed out above. optics.
A coach I like to use as an example of this is Pete Carrol. Matt Flynn and Russel Wilson, by all accounts Flynn was supposed to be the Seahawks starting QB of the future. The Hawks drafted Wilson in the 2012 3rd round as a potential fail safe or backup and the rest is history.
Point is Coaches like Carrol don't give a shit about optics and his record speaks for itself. Love him or hate him, he's a great coach and talent evaluator. I mean look what he did with Geno Smith this year. A QB destined to ride the bench for his career is now one of the best QB's in the NFL. This isn't by luck.
Coaches are fallible. But coaches also get to see other things.. work ethic.. attention to detail.. things we don't see.

We think that McVay and Snead are worried about optics? I guess I missed that when I read all the dire predictions around the NFL before the start of last season that the Rams were destined to fail because they were carrying too much dead cap and hadn't drafted any offensive lineman.

Rapp is a functional NFL safety. He's not great, he's not awful. The idea that he's purely a bench player is a "familiarity breeds contempt" situation.
He's got a 66+ pff score.. yes.. he's better against the run than the pass.

The Rams have catastrophic injuries this season. That's why they suck.
 

Ram Ts

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I don’t mind the soft coverage employed by Morris. If indeed that is needed due to personnel.

What I do mind is having zero adjustments and zero situational understanding. Continuing to play 7-10 yards off on 3rd/4th and short is simply idiotic. Easy pitch and catch for 1st downs and continuing the drive.

Soft coverage problems are crystallized by the fact that we went something like 8 games without a turnover until KC game. That’s crazy - but understandable with this D scheme.