Should The St. Louis Rams Fire Gregg Williams?

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joeybittick

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Should The St. Louis Rams Fire Gregg Williams?

by Ryan Van Bibber on Mar 4, 2012 10:33 AM CST in 2012 NFL offseason

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/section/2012-nfl-offseason

The St. Louis Rams have a little problem on their hands as blowback from the Gregg Williams bounty program story starts ti infringe on the team's much-needed new path to respectability, and bigger profits. Not even three days old, the story continues to snowball with more and more revelations about Williams' past. Eventually, the story is going to force the Rams to act, even though the bounty system took place in locker rooms far away from the ones at the Edward Jones Dome.

The problem for the Rams is twofold.

Williams is going to be punished severely for his actions in New Orleans. The man is going to be suspended. It would be nothing short of a miracle if he was not. The extent of a potential suspension is unknown, but it figures to be lengthy one.

Regardless of the length of the suspension, it presents something of a problem for a team trying to implement a new defense. Sure, the scheme may be similar, but new it is nevertheless a new system for players to learn and adapt to in 2012. Sidelining Williams has the potential to short circuit that work.

A bigger issue is the distraction Williams' problems bring to the Rams, a team that planned to be singularly focused on rebuilding, again. The NFL investigation opened the floodgates. It appears that bounty systems were a regular part of Williams' approach, just another part of his base package.

The NFL will now investigate claims of Williams running a bounty system in Washington. Another report says that Williams had a bounty system in Buffalo. Tony Dungy says the Titans had one too, after Williams had moved on from his stint as the defensive coordinator there.

This thing is getting uncomfortably close to Jeff Fisher, the well-respected veteran head coach hired at some $7 million per year to turn around a fledgling franchise. Williams' proximity to Fisher presents another problem since Fisher was re-installed to his seat on the league's competition committee, the body that makes determinations about rules.

You can see the potential for problems.

Between their London troubles, the owner's flirtation with buying the Los Angeles Dodgers and lease negotiations that will determine the team's future in St. Louis, the Rams already have plenty of distractions. Another one of this magnitude and people might forget altogether that there is actually a football team here ... if they haven't already after years of futility on the football field.

The Rams will have to have a serious conversation about whether or not to fire Gregg Williams. Doing so might be their best way to contain the blaze before it can do greater damage.

Roger Goodell will have some say in the matter when he makes a determination about the consequences. If he goes easy on Williams, which seems unlikely given the league's public overtures to player safety and branding as an enterprise that appeals across demographics, the Rams can take a chance that the whole thing will just fade from collective memory. Fat chance.

The real problem here is the proximity to Fisher and his task of fixing this franchise. In order to do that now, he may need to ask his old friend to fall on his sword.
 

paceram

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I think the best case scenario for the Rams is what someone mentioned earlier and that is for Williams to do the right thing and resign. If Jeff Fisher is really a close friend to him and if the allegations against him are true then I wouldn't think he would want to put Fisher in a really awkward situation like this.
 

libertadrocks

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paceram said:
I think the best case scenario for the Rams is what someone mentioned earlier and that is for Williams to do the right thing and resign. If Jeff Fisher is really a close friend to him and if the allegations against him are true then I wouldn't think he would want to put Fisher in a really awkward situation like this.

Agreed, a resignation would be the best case scenario.

Regardless I think Williams has to go. If he sticks around it will just add a huge black cloud above the organization. Not to mention the extra hardships that will come along with trying to instal a new defense without the coordinator.

McGinnis could potentially step in as DC. He is already LB coach/assistant HC.

Cut our losses now. The players dont even have the playbooks yet. Better sooner than later.
 

-X-

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No idea. I'm kind of waiting to see what's in that 50,000 page report. It can't be ALL about Williams, especially if you consider how prevalent this is throughout the league. That said, it's his dumb ass that made the mistake of rewarding a player for a 'cart-off'. That's the thing that's going to stick in everyone's minds when it comes to this bounty system. If the system was in place to reward ONLY personal achievement, and NOT the injury of another player, then it probably wouldn't carry so much backlash.

idiot. Can't believe this team has to endure so much shit. Someone remind me why I signed on for this?
 

joeybittick

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X said:
No idea. I'm kind of waiting to see what's in that 50,000 page report. It can't be ALL about Williams, especially if you consider how prevalent this is throughout the league. That said, it's his dumb ass that made the mistake of rewarding a player for a 'cart-off'. That's the thing that's going to stick in everyone's minds when it comes to this bounty system. If the system was in place to reward ONLY personal achievement, and NOT the injury of another player, then it probably wouldn't carry so much backlash.

idiot. Can't believe this team has to endure so much shit. Someone remind me why I signed on for this?

Yeah, I commented in another thread about this, and while I still think it is a bit of sensationalism (it is a sexy headline for all of the wrong reasons) I also think that the Rams get enough negative press. If his past is going to have ANY negative affect on the Rams at all I will support them getting rid of him.
 

Stranger

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This smell more and more like a hit job on Williams. We have yet to see any of the evidence, correct?
 

libertadrocks

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interference said:
This smell more and more like a hit job on Williams. We have yet to see any of the evidence, correct?

We havent seen any of the physical evidence, but it definitely happen. Williams already apologized for the bounties while he was in NOLA.

There are now investigations going on as to weather he used bounties in DC and Buffalo.

Best to dump him now before Fisher and the rest of our staff gets dragged into it.
 

-X-

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joeybittick said:
X said:
No idea. I'm kind of waiting to see what's in that 50,000 page report. It can't be ALL about Williams, especially if you consider how prevalent this is throughout the league. That said, it's his dumb ass that made the mistake of rewarding a player for a 'cart-off'. That's the thing that's going to stick in everyone's minds when it comes to this bounty system. If the system was in place to reward ONLY personal achievement, and NOT the injury of another player, then it probably wouldn't carry so much backlash.

idiot. Can't believe this team has to endure so much shit. Someone remind me why I signed on for this?

Yeah, I commented in another thread about this, and while I still think it is a bit of sensationalism (it is a sexy headline for all of the wrong reasons) I also think that the Rams get enough negative press. If his past is going to have ANY negative affect on the Rams at all I will support them getting rid of him.
I should clarify something I said there too. When I said it wouldn't carry as much 'backlash' if the cart-off reward wasn't included, I didn't mean there would be any less backlash from the league office. A broken rule is a broken rule. I was more talking about the way the public and media perceives this. I don't think anyone would give a damn if a player got rewarded for a 2-sack game, or causing a fumble. But rewarding for cart-offs or taking a player out of a game makes everyone think that it's the ONLY thing these players were concentrating on. And maybe there were. I dunno.
 

ramsince62

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interference said:
This smell more and more like a hit job on Williams. We have yet to see any of the evidence, correct?

You meant, except for his admission of wrong doing for all those years? What part of a $50,000 bounty pool "smells" like a hit job?

IMO, the question remains, what's best for the Rams,...carrying around this distraction or a clean slate? I said initially that Williams must go, I've seen nothing to change my mind.

What I find disturbing is the realization or at least strong assumption that Fisher knew something was brewing on this matter and still elected to hire Williams. I find this whole thing distasteful, disturbing and disappointing, this team deserves better. :bummed:

As for a 50,000 page report, I wonder if that's a typo? Maybe it's closer to 5,000 pages, LOL. :razzed:
 

brokeu91

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X said:
joeybittick said:
X said:
No idea. I'm kind of waiting to see what's in that 50,000 page report. It can't be ALL about Williams, especially if you consider how prevalent this is throughout the league. That said, it's his dumb ass that made the mistake of rewarding a player for a 'cart-off'. That's the thing that's going to stick in everyone's minds when it comes to this bounty system. If the system was in place to reward ONLY personal achievement, and NOT the injury of another player, then it probably wouldn't carry so much backlash.

idiot. Can't believe this team has to endure so much shyte. Someone remind me why I signed on for this?

Yeah, I commented in another thread about this, and while I still think it is a bit of sensationalism (it is a sexy headline for all of the wrong reasons) I also think that the Rams get enough negative press. If his past is going to have ANY negative affect on the Rams at all I will support them getting rid of him.
I should clarify something I said there too. When I said it wouldn't carry as much 'backlash' if the cart-off reward wasn't included, I didn't mean there would be any less backlash from the league office. A broken rule is a broken rule. I was more talking about the way the public and media perceives this. I don't think anyone would give a damn if a player got rewarded for a 2-sack game, or causing a fumble. But rewarding for cart-offs or taking a player out of a game makes everyone think that it's the ONLY thing these players were concentrating on. And maybe there were. I dunno.
I totally agree X. The public is hearing about how this was done in order to hurt other players. It sounds like assault. I know some of the players have been saying that the bounties were mainly for getting a fumble or a sack or something, but even if 99% of the bounties were for fumbles everyone will still focus on the 1% that were about trying to knock the QB out of the game. I hope for Williams sake that he wasn't putting money down for players to be knocked out, but rather just for getting a sack or an interception. In either case, Williams may not be our DC next year.
 

superfan24

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brokeu91 said:
X said:
joeybittick said:
X said:
No idea. I'm kind of waiting to see what's in that 50,000 page report. It can't be ALL about Williams, especially if you consider how prevalent this is throughout the league. That said, it's his dumb ass that made the mistake of rewarding a player for a 'cart-off'. That's the thing that's going to stick in everyone's minds when it comes to this bounty system. If the system was in place to reward ONLY personal achievement, and NOT the injury of another player, then it probably wouldn't carry so much backlash.

idiot. Can't believe this team has to endure so much shyte. Someone remind me why I signed on for this?

Yeah, I commented in another thread about this, and while I still think it is a bit of sensationalism (it is a sexy headline for all of the wrong reasons) I also think that the Rams get enough negative press. If his past is going to have ANY negative affect on the Rams at all I will support them getting rid of him.
I should clarify something I said there too. When I said it wouldn't carry as much 'backlash' if the cart-off reward wasn't included, I didn't mean there would be any less backlash from the league office. A broken rule is a broken rule. I was more talking about the way the public and media perceives this. I don't think anyone would give a damn if a player got rewarded for a 2-sack game, or causing a fumble. But rewarding for cart-offs or taking a player out of a game makes everyone think that it's the ONLY thing these players were concentrating on. And maybe there were. I dunno.
I totally agree X. The public is hearing about how this was done in order to hurt other players. It sounds like assault. I know some of the players have been saying that the bounties were mainly for getting a fumble or a sack or something, but even if 99% of the bounties were for fumbles everyone will still focus on the 1% that were about trying to knock the QB out of the game. I hope for Williams sake that he wasn't putting money down for players to be knocked out, but rather just for getting a sack or an interception. In either case, Williams may not be our DC next year.

I hope he isn't either. Don't want the league looking over the Rams shoulder the whole season.
 

steferfootball

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I feel like he is going to be suspended for a Season, perhaps more? ...idk.

I don't feel like there is a reason to bring him back afterwards.
 

Angry Ram

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I thought long and hard about this, and in the end, Williams should be fired if he doesn't resign. W/ now a 3rd team (Buffalo) coming out that Williams had a bounty program, kinda speaks for itself. Luckily there hasn't been any team activites to implement his system, so it won't be that big of a deal.
 

HitStick

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I support the bounty. I don't support cheap shots that injure someone but if you can take someone out the game with a clean shot....DO IT.
 

Selassie I

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Williams was not the only member of the saints that could be held responsible for the bounties.

Apparently everyone from the ownership down knew about this... Just like everyone knows about the March Madness office pools going on in offices all over the US this month. Many men from all levels of the team contributed to the pot. Illegal ??? Technically because of cap rules,,, the IRS has rules too.

Nobody has said anything about Williams telling players to illegally take out an opponent.




None of you better cheat on your taxes. :hehe:
 

BatteringRambo

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I don't have a confident way which to be steered as all of you have presented perfectly justified reasons. I just don't see how this is all Williams. This had to be almost league wide and remembering several aggressive coaches and d-coord's such as Gruden,Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Pagono, to name a few as references. In layman's terms thus just sucks as it affects our dc position now and image of Jeff fisher and staff moving forward.
 

Memento

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The only problem I'm seeing is that the some of the players (Vilma) were putting money on the table to target opposing players and that the GM (Loomis) was encouraging it. In Williams' defense, Ruben Brown, a guard who had played for the Buffalo Bills when Williams was there, said that he had never employed any kind of bounty system in Buffalo. Brown has no reason to lie about that; he retired a long time ago, and I don't think that an offensive player would have the same kind of bias as a defensive player.

We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

I'm going to defend Williams unless Fisher decides to fire him. I don't feel that he should resign because of this, and I certainly don't think he should be fired. So far, this is the problem of the Saints, not us.
 

BatteringRambo

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Memento said:
The only problem I'm seeing is that the some of the players (Vilma) were putting money on the table to target opposing players and that the GM (Loomis) was encouraging it. In Williams' defense, Ruben Brown, a guard who had played for the Buffalo Bills when Williams was there, said that he had never employed any kind of bounty system in Buffalo. Brown has no reason to lie about that; he retired a long time ago, and I don't think that an offensive player would have the same kind of bias as a defensive player.

We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

I'm going to defend Williams unless Fisher decides to fire him. I don't feel that he should resign because of this, and I certainly don't think he should be fired. So far, this is the problem of the Saints, not us.
Good post bro!
 

joeybittick

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Angry Ram said:
I thought long and hard about this, and in the end, Williams should be fired if he doesn't resign. W/ now a 3rd team (Buffalo) coming out that Williams had a bounty program, kinda speaks for itself. Luckily there hasn't been any team activites to implement his system, so it won't be that big of a deal.

Maybe I have a "Pollyanna" complex about our Rams.... but I wonder how that meeting would have went over with a lot of Spags' guys? I just have a hard time believing Chris Long or JL would have been real happy about being told they need to go out and break someone's limb.

I really have no idea, but from the interviews and other (admittedly small amount of) things I have heard from a lot of the Rams' core guys it would not have been a popular idea.

Maybe not, maybe that's why Spags D's were so good, maybe he had the biggest bounty program going for all I know... but if that is the case I would be absolutely surprised.
 

Anonymous

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We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

The hits didn't have to be dirty. In fact that's not even the charge against him.

The fact that there was off-record incentive payoffs is bad enough--it's illegal under league rules and also violates the CBA.

That fact that there were such payments specifically for hurting players makes it even worse.

Bounties are illegal in the NFL.

Williams to meet with NFL over paid bounties
Published: Sunday, March 04, 2012, 5:38 PM
The Associated Press

The Saints maintained a bounty pool of up to $50,000 the last three seasons, the NFL said. Payoffs came for inflicting game-ending injuries, among other events. The investigation by NFL security found that quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner were among the players targeted. "Knockouts" were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs" $1,000, with payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.

All payouts for specific performances in a game, including interceptions or causing fumbles, are against NFL rules. The NFL also warns teams against such practices before each season.

The NFL said the findings were corroborated by multiple, independent sources, and the pool amounts peaked in 2009, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for 'performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," Commissioner Roger Goodell said Friday in a statement. "The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity."

Severe, sweeping penalties under consideration in Saints bounty case

By Mark Maske

According to the NFL’s investigation, the Saints’ bounty system was primarily player-funded and paid for hits that forced opponents off the field or knocked them out of a game, along with fumble recoveries and interceptions. Such payments violate league rules, according to the NFL.

Williams' fate is in Goodell's hands

BY BERNIE MIKLASZ, Post-Dispatch

The NFL found that Saints players were paid bonuses for (among other things) hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL's official report cites the culpability of Williams, who ran the Saints' defense from 2009-2011. According to the league's report, Williams on occasion put his own money into the bounty pool.

Williams issued a statement apologizing for his actions and conceding that he failed to intervene to stop the Saints' misdeeds.