Judge & Jury: Is Aaron Donald the Greatest Player in Rams' History?

[JimY53]

https://talkoffametwo.com/judge-and-jury/aaron-donald-greatest-ram-ever

Judge & Jury: Is Aaron Donald the Greatest Player in Rams' History?​

It's Aaron Donald Week on the Talk of Fame Two, with this simple question. Our jury returned an immediate verdict.

In this story:​

LOS ANGELES RAMS
Each week the Talk of Fame Two consults historians and/or media members for answers to the Question du Jour. After hearing from them, a judge – in this case, Hall-of-Fame voter Clark Judge -- renders a verdict based on their responses. This week we checked in with a jury of historians and former Hall-of-Fame voters with this timely question:

Q: Is Aaron Donald the greatest Ram of all time?
THE JURY

IRA MILLER, former Hall-of-Fame voter, San Francisco.
“I think the real question is how would Aaron Donald and Deacon Jones have performed in each other’s era? I’d say flip a coin.”

KEN CRIPPEN, founder and lead instructor, The Football Learning Academy.

“Recency bias will have Aaron Donald as the greatest Rams’ player of all-time. Personally, I still have Deacon Jones as the greatest Rams’ player of all-time. That does not mean that Donald is not in the conversation. But Jones is the greatest, in my opinion.”

BRYAN FRYE, pro football historian and researcher.

“The Rams have no shortage of all-time great players on both sides of the ball. However, with all due respect to legends like Van Brocklin, Slater, Dickerson, and Faulk, I believe the Rushmore of Rams includes four defensive linemen. Deacon Jones was a pass rushing phenom who once recorded 115.5 sacks in an 84-game span and was among the best ever at chasing down a run from the backside. While Jones got the numbers, teammate Merlin Olsen may have been even better. He was a fortress against the run, got plenty of pressure in his own right and gobbled up double teams like Pac-Man. The consistently underrated Jack Youngblood might as well have changed his mailing address to opposing backfields, such was his prowess at sacking passers and dropping backs for a loss. A late career switch to a 3-4 didn't seem to slow him down one bit. Newest isn't always best, but I believe it is in this case. Aaron Donald was the best defensive tackle in football as a rookie and remained on top of the pack until injury caused him to miss time in his ninth season. He drew double and triple teams at a nigh-unfathomable rate and still managed to pressure quarterbacks so frequently that the media had to resort to comparing him to edge rushers, because he outpaced his interior peers by such a wide margin. I believe Donald was not just the best defender in the league, but the best player in the league in at least half of his seasons—and he managed to do it in the most offense-friendly environment in NFL history.”

JACK SILVERSTEIN, Chicago’s sports historian.

“Yes.”

JIM CAMPBELL, pro football researcher/historian and co-author of “Hell With the Lid Off,” a story of the intense Raiders-Steelers rivalry of the 1970s.
"At the risk of ignoring Hall-of-Famers Bob Waterfield and Elroy 'Crazy Legs' Hirsch, Merlin Olsen and Jack Youngblood, I agree with those who place the laurel wreath upon Aaron Donald's head. It can be argued that he delivered a Vince Lmobardi Trophy to the franchise single-handedly. His ability to produce the biggest play at the biggest moment was unmatched. So, yes, he's the greatest (apologies to Muhammad Ali)."

NICK CANEPA, former Hall of Fame voter, San Diego.
“I certainly have no problem with Donald, and I've seen him play plenty in that the Rams have spent so much time on San Diego TV since I was a child. But I have to think the greatest Ram is Marshall Faulk. One of the best all-around backs. Great runner and pass catcher and so football smart he was a coach on the field, He was a league MVP and Super Bowl MVP _ and might have been twice had Mike Martz remembered Marshall was on his roster in that Super Bowl.”

UPTON BELL, former NFL executive and son of former NFL commissioner Bert Bell.
“Bob Waterfield. Norm Van Brocklin. Tom Fears. ‘Crazy Legs’ Hirsch. The Baby Elephant Backfield. The Fearsome Foursome. Deacon Jones. Merlin Olsen. Lamar Lundy. Rosie Grier. Jack Youngblood. Eric Dickerson. How many stars are there in the universe? This is a brief list of the Rams who were originally Hollywood’s team. I first saw many of them in the 1940’s and early 50’s. I’ve seen everyone since then, and there is no question that Aaron Donald belongs among these immortals and is one of the greatest linemen of his time. But is he the greatest Ram of all time? I don’t think so. Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen and Eric Dickerson are my Top 3.”

GEORGE BOZEKA, president, Pro Football Researchers Association.
“Aaron Donald is not my choice for the greatest Ram ever. I'm going old school. My choice is Bob Waterfield. During his eight-year Hall-of-Fame career, Waterfield led the Rams to four NFL championship games; winning two. Waterfield was a great all-around athlete. In addition to his quarterbacking duties, he was also the Rams' punter and kicker, plus he played defensive back with 20 career interceptions. Waterfield was named first team All-Pro three times and to the Pro Bowl twice. He was the NFL's MVP in 1945, and he was named to the NFL's 1940s all-decade team. Married to Hollywood sex symbol Jane Russell, the Los Angeles Times once stated that Waterfield’s life read “like a Marvel comic book. He was Captain America and the mighty Thor rolled into one, a real-life superhero who rewrote the record book, won the big game and got the girl -- a movie star, no less.”

THE VERDICT
Because this question spans generations, I wanted an historical perspective -- which is another way of saying I wanted to hear from historians and former Hall voters who might have seen the Rams’ greats from the 1950s or ‘60s. That way, we could gain a response that wasn’t stained by what Ken Crippen accurately calls “recency bias.”

Result? Mission accomplished.

As every juror pointed out, Aaron Donald is worthy of consideration. That’s why the question was posed. But all but Jack Silverstein and Jim Campbell either chose others or included Donald among them, with Deacon Jones a popular pick ... and that's understandable. There have been so many stars in the Rams' orbit that they could create their own Hollywood Walk of Fame.
Aaron Donald is just the latest.

But the question in front of us is direct: Is he the best ever? Better than Watefield and Van Brocklin? Bette than Olsen and Deacon? Better than Dickerson and Faulk? That’s a mighty steep hill to climb, yet Donald is equipped to do it. His resume is unassailable, from his eight first-team All-Pros ... to his 10 Pro Bowls ... to his three Defensive MVPs … to his all-decade choice ... to a league championship. There is nothing Aaron Donald did not conquer in 10 NFL seasons.
Until now.

Look, Aaron Donald was the best defensive player of his era, and he might be the best defensive tackle of all time. In fact, when historian John Turney measured him against the all-time greats at his position on this site Tuesday, he concluded that, yes, as a matter of fact, Aaron Donald was the greatest defensive tackle ever.
But the greatest Ram of all time? Our jury tells a different story. It included him among the franchise greats but, with two exceptions, failed to choose him as the best ever … which has more to do with the litany of luminaries who pulled on Rams’ jerseys than it does Donald.
Aaron Donald was a preternatural athlete who's a first-ballot cinch for Canton and one of the best defensive players in NFL history. But the greatest Ram ever? You heard our jury. No, he's not ... and that's OK. Because he's one of them.
Court adjourned


BY
CLARK JUDGE




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[JimY53]

https://talkoffametwo.com/state-your-case/aaron-donald-greatest-defensive-tackle

full article - available click link -- had to be chopped for being able to post

State Your Case: Is Aaron Donald the NFL's Greatest Defensive Tackle Ever?​

Now that he's retired, it's time to assess Donald's legacy. Historian John Turney does just that, comparing him to the best of all time.


Sometimes players referred to as "generational" eclipse the usual standards and must be measured on a more stringent scale reserved for rare players. Names like Jim Brown, Johnny Unitas, Dick Butkus, Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice and Tom Brady are prime examples.
But so is Rams' defensive tackle Aaron Donald, who retired last weekend.
In terms of his legacy, you can't ask questions like, "Will he be in the Hall of Fame? Or, "Will he be a first-ballot Hall of Famer?". The answers are obvious. No, for Aaron Donald, it's more appropriate to ask, "Is he the greatest defensive tackle of all time?" In other words, did his career measurably surpass his predecessors?

Let's explore.

THE CASE FOR AARON DONALD

Before Donald established himself as a dominant force, the "Mr. Rushmore" of defensive tackles was pretty much a consensus consisting of Hall-of-Famers Bob Lilly, Joe Greene, Merlin Olsen and Alan Page. They were dominant for a long time, played on great defenses and won the most personal accolades, i.e., the "alls," such as All-Pro, Pro Bowls all-decade, etc.
There can be considerable discussion as to which one was the best, and there was. But then Aaron Donald entered the game in the last decade, and the debate changed. The 6-foot-one, 280-pound first-round pick out of Pitt started his career with a bang, and that bang never stopped, even through his final season.

Considered undersized for a defensive interior player, he blew people away at the 2014 NFL scouting combine by running a 4.67 40-yard dash (one that included a 1.63 10-yard split) and bench-pressing 225 pounds 35 times. All are between the 90th and 99th percentiles for his position, and all were accomplished by someone in the bottom ten percentiles in height and weight.
We should have known then. Aaron Donald was a dynamo that came in a relatively small package.

As a rookie three-technique for the St. Louis Rams, Donald was a second-team All-Pro, made the Pro Bowl and was easily the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year. In his next nine seasons, he was a consensus All-Pro eight times, went to every Pro Bowl and was voted Defensive Player of the Year three times.
No player has ever won that more.

He also logged 111 sacks, forced 24 fumbles and incessantly pressured quarterbacks while being double-and-triple-teamed and held more often than you can count.

.....

THE "MT. RUSHMORE" OF DEFENSIVE TACKLES
So back to the question: Was Aaron Donald the G.O.A.T.? Let's take a peek at what the four "Mt. Rushmore tackles" accomplished and then decide:

Bob Lilly
14 seasons, seven consensus All-Pro seasons and 11 Pro Bowls.
One Super Bowl ring.
Unofficial sack total -- 95-1/2.

By far the best player on the great Dallas "Doomsday" defenses. He never won a Defensive Player-of-the-Year award. But the NEA didn't award one until 1966, while the AP began in 1972. Had there been one in 1964, it would have been Lilly, and there were other years where he'd have been in the running.

For the Rushmore tackles, there are far too many positives to cover. So let's just grant that they built their reputations on rare abilities and accomplishments. Separating them won't be easy, but citing possible "holes" in their near-perfect resumes can help ... and all four, to small degrees, have imperfections.

For example, prior to his era of dominance (call it 1964-72) Lilly was "spinning his wheels" (as Tom Landry called it) as a left defensive end. So he was moved to right defensive tackle in mid-1963 when Landry implemented the "Flex defense" full-time on likely run downs. The idea was to prevent offensive tackles from "do-dad" blocking Lilly (now called "duo" blocking), and it worked to perfection.
Bob Lilly became a legendary defensive tackle.

Then, in Lilly's final two years, especially 1974, he was slowed by a bad back and removed on passing downs. Perhaps Landry thought in years 13 and 14 of Lilly's career where he was slowed by an ailing back, the team was better off with Bill Gregory in the game on third and long situations.

Nevertheless, he was "Mr. Cowboy" and one of the all-time greats.

Joe Greene
13 seasons, three times consensus All-Pro, 10 Pro Bowls.
1972 and 1974 NFL Defensive Player of the Year.
Four Super Bowl rings.
Unofficial sack total -- 77-1/2.
At his peak (1969-mid-1975), "Mean Joe" may have been the most feared defensive tackle of the four. He was unblockable and could not be intimidated.

But remember: We're dissecting these careers, and upon close inspection, find that that in 1975 Greene was slowed by a pinched nerve in his neck -- an injury that lingered through 1976 and one that, by Greene's admission, limited him.

While he wasn't as effective a pass rusher afterward, he remained a dominant run stuffer and a Pro Bowl-level player. But he was no longer someone who would compete for the Defensive Player of the Year as he did the first half of his career.

His strength and quickness remained, which meant he could still be devastating vs. the run in Pittsburgh's "Stunt 4-3" scheme. However, the last half of his career, he wasn't the pass rusher he was before.
Merlin Olsen

15 seasons, five-times consensus All-Pro, 14 Pro Bowls.
No Super Bowl rings.
Unofficial sack total -- 91,

Olsen's peak was not as high as Lilly, Greene or Page, but he was more consistent doing what he was asked in tandem with Deacon Jones and, later, Jack Youngblood. With two elite edge rushers who were as fast as they were quick, someone had to make sure there were no gaps in the defensive line, and Olsen often was that someone. He had to be aware of traps, screens, draws, you name it ... anything that could hurt an aggressive defense.

"That became my job", Olsen said.

And he did it well, making a ton of plays.

Olsen's only significant setback was a knee injury that occurred in the Pro Bowl following the 1970 season, and it probably affected him through the 1971 season. Nevertheless, he had fabulous years after that. Unfortunately, by then Greene and Page had established themselves as the top two defensive tackles in the game.

In the final analysis, Olsen had no negatives in his career. He was consistent from one year to the next. But if he was the league's best defensive tackle in the NFL, his reign was short. It would have been in 1969 and 1970 ... and that's a maybe, and it was only by a fraction over Lilly. Still, he was a top-two finisher many times, if you follow.

Alan Page
15 seasons, five-times consensus All-Pro, 9 Pro Bowls.
1971 NFL MVP.
No Super Bowl rings.
Unofficial sack total -- 148-1/2.

Of these four candidates, Page had the highest peak, mostly because he was the first defensive player to be voted an NFL MVP. Plus, to this day, he was as effective a pass rusher from the inside as the game has seen -- right there with Donald and John Randle.
Lighting quick off the snap, Page could make guards look silly. Coach Bud Grant gave him the freedom to play anywhere from opposite a center to the inside of an opposing tackle, which was unusual for that era. But it worked, with Page in the conversation as best-ever defensive tackle for the first decade of his career.

But then something happened.

Late in his career, he not only attended law school but took up marathon running, too. In the process, he shed over 20 pounds, dropping his weight from around 245 pounds to 225 or so. And he played at that weight from 1977 through the rest of his career.
Page contended the weight loss was "mostly fat," but, whatever it was, it had an impact on his career. He suddenly was displaced by offensive linemen, so much so that Grant released the former MVP early in the 1978 season. From there, he went on to Chicago where he played well as a pass rusher but wasn't as strong stopping the run as you'd expect from an all-time great.

But in 1980-81, then-Bears' defensive coach Buddy Ryan began implementing his "46 defense," with Page positioned over center and a defensive lineman placed to either side over the guards. It created a one-on-one match for Page with the center, and it worked. Even at a lighter weight, Alan Page excelled.

THE VERDICT ...

 

[André]

So many very good Rams, all mentioned in those notes above.

But I think the #1 way that it could be measured - and maybe should be measured - is by answering the question: "who was the best player at their position, and how far down was it to second best?" For Donald, it was him by a country mile for the first eight straight years of his career. And was still in the conversation for the other two. Not sure anyone else measures up to that, and I am a huge fan of Dickerson, Faulk, Youngblood, Deacon, Olsen, Bruce, Holt ... not sure any of them meet that standard. Deacon would be the closest, I guess, but I didn't see him at his prime so I could be wrong.

 

[PARAM]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

"Newest isn't always best, but I believe it is in this case. Aaron Donald was the best defensive tackle in football as a rookie and remained on top of the pack until injury caused him to miss time in his ninth season. He drew double and triple teams at a nigh-unfathomable rate and still managed to pressure quarterbacks so frequently that the media had to resort to comparing him to edge rushers, because he outpaced his interior peers by such a wide margin. I believe Donald was not just the best defender in the league, but the best player in the league in at least half of his seasons—and he managed to do it in the most offense-friendly environment in NFL history.”

 

[FrantikRam]

Yes.

I think we can boil it down to be this simple:

He was widely considered the best player in the NFL for several seasons in a row. The only other Ram I think even has a case there would be Deacon, and if someone wanted to go there I'm fine with that. But I give AD the tiebreaker due to this era being more competitive.

 

[PARAM]

The Rams have so many all time greats, they could field a team of 22.

Defensive Rushmore: Deacon, Merlin, Youngblood, Donald
Offensive Rushmore: Gabriel, Warner, Stafford, Dickerson, Faulk, Steven Jackson, Ike, Torry, Harold Jackson, Elroy Hirsch, Tom Fears
OL: Mack, Pace, Harrah, Slater, Saul and a few excellent reserves!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

AD is the greatest player I’ve ever seen play at any position.

 

[Haden]

I'd put Deacon and Donald in a tie as the greatest defenders period. What Donald did against double and triple teams is simply unheard of. For recent times, I'd vote Warner, Faulk, Dickerson and Bruce as the greatest in a tie. Waterfield is my offense vote for old school.

 

[Jacobarch]

Is AD the best player to ever play the game? It's debatable. But what's not, is AD being the best defensive player of all time.

 

[PARAM]

Think about how many HOFers who were Rams!!

Executive: Rozelle GM
Head coaches: Gillman, Stydahar, Vermeil

QBs: Van Brocklin, Waterfield, Warner
RBs: Dickerson, Faulk
WRs: Ike, Fears, Hirsch
OL: Mack, Slater, Pace
DE: Deacon, Youngblood
DT: Olsen
LB: Richter

And then you have players who were either drafted by the Rams and/or played a limited time (at least 2 years) for the Rams.

Bob Brown (T, 3 yrs)
Jerome Bettis (RB, 3 yrs)
Kevin Greene (OLB, 8 yrs)
Ollie Matson (RB, 4 yrs)
Aeneas Williams (CB-S, 4 yrs)
Dick Nightrain Lane (CB, 2 yrs)
Andy Robustelli (DE, 5 yrs)

I may have missed somebody but.....

That's a lot of Gold Jackets!!!

And we still expect to see Torry Holt there and in 5 years Aaron Donald.

371 people in the HOF (prior to this year). 26 were affiliated with the Rams as players, execs or head coaches. That's 7%. Not too shabby.

 

[fanotodd]

Yes.

I think we can boil it down to be this simple:

He was widely considered the best player in the NFL for several seasons in a row. The only other Ram I think even has a case there would be Deacon, and if someone wanted to go there I'm fine with that. But I give AD the tiebreaker due to this era being more competitive.

Like the article said, AD did it in an era that was geared towards offense. I was watching #99’s highlights and some of his hits early in his career were penalties later.

 

[tempests]

That juror deliberation stinks. You can see some of them are barely putting any thought into it.

Deacon was my pick for greatest Ram of the 20th century. But it's the 21st century now and

Pro Bowls - Aaron 10, Deacon 8
First team All Pro - Aaron 8 Deacon 5
Defensive Player of the Year - Aaron 3, Deacon 2
Championships - Aaron 1, Deacon 0

Deacon has the edge in sacks, but is edged out in every other significant category by AD. The greatest Ram has to pass the mantle.

 

[HitStick]

Greatest player? Probably.

Greatest defensive player? Absolutely.

Imagine Donald in an era where you could physically abuse every member of the offense. Late hits, head slaps, hands to the face…

AD would have no competition for the greatest defensive player EVER.

As it stands, in an era where the offense is protected, that man did what few people could do from the DT position, and he did it consistently for 10 straight years.

AD is my Rams defensive GOAT.

For me, it’s a toss up between AD99 and Faulk for the greatest Ram.

Without Faulk, there’s no GSOT, which means no Super Bowl win. Without AD, Burrow hits Chase for a TD with Jalen falling down. No Superbowl win.

 

[snackdaddy]

When comparing players from different eras its all subjective. I've seen some say Lawrence Taylor was better. He was an elite pass rusher for sure. Maybe the best edge rusher of all time. How can you compare him to Donald though? They played different positions.

Teams mighta had an extra guy to help block Taylor but it wouldn't be a 300 LB plus lineman. Usually a running back or tight end. Donald consistently had two sometimes even three of those big linemen blocking him. He'd wreck the game for the opposition if they didn't do that.

 

[SWAdude]

I have never seen a single player change an entire game.

Aaron Donald is that guy.

AD is the GOAT in these eyes.

 

[fearsomefour]

In my opinion, yes.
He is the greatest Ram of all time.
In terms of dominance at his position.....particularly given the rules he played much of his career under helping the offense....he was simply more dominant than anyone else.
Sad he decided not to squeeze every ounce out of his amazing talent in terms of playing a few more years, which he certainly could have.
Donald and Slater top the list for me.

 

[Loyal]

One thing I find interesting is how unprepared the media was for his retirement. Many times when a great player in any sport is close to retirement, they have a rough draft written story or collection of greatest plays ready to go on the day the player retires. It seems that there was quite a bit of hangtime after Friday's tweet by AD.

 

[Loyal]

I have never seen a single player change an entire game.

Aaron Donald is that guy.

AD is the GOAT in these eyes.

IDK... Deacon's head slap was a fearsome thing that caused small concussions (seeing stars) to NFL Olinemen. The NFL reacted to him specifically by banning the practice. Even so, could you imagine AD doing that today if it were still legal? I dare say that he would be the all time sack leader.

 

[Steve808]

How often were the other defensive players double and triple teamed?

I believe and in my opinion, this is why I believe AD is the greatest. A generational talent.

 

[Londoner]

How often were the other defensive players double and triple teamed?

We don’t have every down footage available of Olsen, Jones, Youngblood, etc.

Or of any of the great offensive players of yesteryear.

Which is what makes this question impossible to answer.

The Rams have had many great (in the true meaning of the word) players over the years. Aaron Donald was one of them.

Let’s just enjoy this franchise’s history and its wonderful players.