I have some questions for the 'experts' on OL play.

[PARAM]

First I want to say, I am not a talent evaluator. I don't watch the OL from pre-snap. I watch the 'flow' but primarily I watch the QB and where the ball goes.

So my question is this: How much does continuity affect the performance of each lineman individually?

What happens after the C makes the line calls and not all 4 of the other guys interpret it right. Can a brainfart by the LT make the LG look like he's at fault? Can the RG's failure make the C or the RT look like a putz? And if the C makes the wrong call, couldn't anybody on the entire line look bad? And that not even accounting for the defense disguising their attack well.

We've had 3 different centers this season, 3 different LTs, a ton of OG's and Havenstein. And not every one of them has played together. For instance in week 1 Allen had the other four starters beside him but since coming back it's almost a completely different group. Havenstein has played beside 4 or 5 RG's. Same for Noteboom.

How much does continuity affect playing as a unit and how many different ways can continuity be affected?

And if all or even just some of that can be true, how can we accurately evaluate the 2022 offensive line? I mean besides saying "I saw guys run by him 6 times in 3 games, he sucks".

I understand in the case of Bobby Evans none of this would apply!!

 

[PARAM]

Can anybody help me with these questions? I'm curious and I want to know. I looked up the season PFF grades for our O lineman but I don't know if they know the blocking assignments on enough plays to give an accurate grade.

 

[fearsomefour]

Im not sure how "accurate" PFF grades are for OL.
There are times a guy I thought played pretty well got a bad grade and sometimes the grades match up with what I think Im seeing.
I will watch both line play every play and will often rewind a play to rewatching how a particular lineman blocked or who gave up a sack.
Anyway, cohesion is a big deal.
McVay has said the reason Evans is playing is he knows the terminology and responsibilities/adjustments better than other guys and McVay thought he gave the best shot of execution....esp in a silent count situation.
There is timing that goes into it as well.
Repetition helps with team blocks, dealing with stunts, handing off responsibility etc.

 

[RamDino]

The Ram lineman always get fooled on stunts and passing d-linemen off to the next guy. Been happening for years. JMO

 

[RamDino]

PS - a lot of this was probably due to the inconsistency at guard and center.

 

[blackbart]

I’m no expert but I do watch the OL and look to see what happens when there is a play blown up.

I think having continuity is imperative when it comes to the OL both on passing downs while handling stunts and passing guys off at the right time and in run plays where they are supposed to cut someone off, get to the second level or seal the back side.

I don’t think playing next to new players every week will ever be a good thing. We haven’t had the same 5 in any 2 weeks this year if my memory serves me right. It’s no wonder the offense has been so horrendous.

 

[Merlin]

First I want to say, I am not a talent evaluator. I don't watch the OL from pre-snap. I watch the 'flow' but primarily I watch the QB and where the ball goes.

So my question is this: How much does continuity affect the performance of each lineman individually?

What happens after the C makes the line calls and not all 4 of the other guys interpret it right. Can a brainfart by the LT make the LG look like he's at fault? Can the RG's failure make the C or the RT look like a putz? And if the C makes the wrong call, couldn't anybody on the entire line look bad? And that not even accounting for the defense disguising their attack well.

We've had 3 different centers this season, 3 different LTs, a ton of OG's and Havenstein. And not every one of them has played together. For instance in week 1 Allen had the other four starters beside him but since coming back it's almost a completely different group. Havenstein has played beside 4 or 5 RG's. Same for Noteboom.

How much does continuity affect playing as a unit and how many different ways can continuity be affected?

And if all or even just some of that can be true, how can we accurately evaluate the 2022 offensive line? I mean besides saying "I saw guys run by him 6 times in 3 games, he sucks".

I understand in the case of Bobby Evans none of this would apply!!

I think the lack of participation is related to the expert tag. I don't consider myself an expert at anything let alone the OL but here goes...

Line calls go out prior to the snap, when the center typically will put out the assignments. Responsibility for overseeing the calls and being on the same page with the calls is on the QB in this moment. So when you have a younger QB there is a layer of confusion potentially, which is why you see young QBs paired with veteran centers and McVay did that with Goff early on if you recall.

If one of the OL misinterprets the call all sorts of bad shit can happen yes. Also if you have a veteran QB who is good with protections this serves as insulation vs these types of things as sometimes you'll see the QB correct the center. It is his ass back there after all that the defensive front is after.

As to the changing of players yes it makes things very hard because there are a lot of blocks that require a quick combination and support from the guy on either side. Even the zone scheme has this. If say the center has a reach block to his left, which is to say the DT is lined up on the other side of him in a 1 technique, a good OG will put a stiffarm in that DT's armpit to stall him just a millisecond so the center can get the reach. So it comes down to scheme too, and also whether you have weak players mixed in with your OL that require assistance in some ways, but OL is that position where the group can quickly disintegrate just due to one guy not handling his shit.

Also and btw they can be better than the sum of their parts when everyone is doing their jobs correctly, even if some of the parts are marginal at best. Look at the Rams GSoT lines for examples there, where we had two top players mixed in among marginal pieces and it worked just fine. So generally continuity is enormous. And generally if you're changing guys out you're going to be prone to the shit that requires coordination, like stunts and zone blitz concepts and the like.

Last but not least LT is a position where you really can't help the tackle. If you keep a TE in to assist on the edge that's one less threat the defense has to deal with. And that extra player can be funneled into an A gap or anywhere else the DC wants on a blitz and overload a line's calls. So this is why OTs tend to make more. And it's why LTs make a ton. Well that and the fact that if you're a QB and don't trust your LT it gets in your head and affects the internal clock and thus timing.

 

[Ellard80]

You don't need great talent at every position - just people that can flow together.

 

[PARAM]

I think the lack of participation is related to the expert tag. I don't consider myself an expert at anything let alone the OL but here goes...

My bad. Should have used "knowledgable" instead. Thanks for the thorough response.

 

[TheTackle]

Good points, all

I can't help wondering if the plan was to have our OL play complicated blocking schemes, which were working in practice before the season, but then the injury bug hit and it all caved in like a pack of cards.

It's not just the lack of talent the further down the roster you go. Many of them look lost, which surprises me because I thought a zone blocking scheme was relatively easy for OL and RBs?

Also, could the blocking schemes be related to the number of injuries? That said, as you know, I think field turf is a major factor

 

[PARAM]

Who can clarify something else for me. Zone blocking scheme only has to do with running the ball, right? Pass blocking is a totally different animal or do I have it wrong? And is it accurate to say, in a zone blocking scheme it's athleticism over size? The man scheme and the zone scheme might have totally different lineman?

 

[oldnotdead]

Of all the units in the NFL that require unit coordination to be successful, it's the OL. Absolutely they need time to gel, i.e. to know what to expect from the guy next to them.

When the QB or usually the Center points out the MIKE he's pointing out the primary reference point for the OL when they make slide the protection to one side or the other, or when they make a pivot to pick up stunts. That's why you often see the individual linemen pointing out the MIKE or other targeted DL. The MIKE is the OL's reference to start their count in knowing who they are going to block. There is a lot more to OL play than most realize. OL like, run blocking because it's simpler to execute. Pass blocking it the hardest thing they have to do. It's a technique that many OL players never really master. There are many nuances to it from body positioning, hand play, and footwork all in a choreographed technique. Players must have good field vision and awareness in order to pick up stunts, blitzes and delayed blitzes. Believe me when I say it's harder than it looks.

So in answer to your basic question, yes the longer the players play together usually the better their unit coordination is.

 

[oldnotdead]

Zone blocking normally refers to a run blocking scheme and it can be an outside zone or inside zone. Gap blocking is sometimes called man blocking because OL players are supposed to specifically block certain defensive players normally on the second level or when they pull. A typical power scheme would be inside where one of the OGs and the center double the NT with the other OG positioning his block to open the A gap. Normally that is then followed by a lead blocker taking out the MIKE LB with the RB following tight behind him breaking one way or the other depending upon the block.

This is all extremely simplistic but hopefully it answers your question.

 

[Jorgeh0605]

Here is a thing i know about the o line (im no expert). There is usually atleast one double team block at some point in a run play. And typically it requires one guy to peel off the double team and block someone on the second level. This requires coordination between two linemen to know exactly how to transition from double team blocking to solo block without losing leverage. Its a whole process that requires practice and communication between players.

 

[XXXIVwin]

I think the lack of participation is related to the expert tag. I don't consider myself an expert at anything let alone the OL but here goes...

Line calls go out prior to the snap, when the center typically will put out the assignments. Responsibility for overseeing the calls and being on the same page with the calls is on the QB in this moment. So when you have a younger QB there is a layer of confusion potentially, which is why you see young QBs paired with veteran centers and McVay did that with Goff early on if you recall.

If one of the OL misinterprets the call all sorts of bad shit can happen yes. Also if you have a veteran QB who is good with protections this serves as insulation vs these types of things as sometimes you'll see the QB correct the center. It is his ass back there after all that the defensive front is after.

As to the changing of players yes it makes things very hard because there are a lot of blocks that require a quick combination and support from the guy on either side. Even the zone scheme has this. If say the center has a reach block to his left, which is to say the DT is lined up on the other side of him in a 1 technique, a good OG will put a stiffarm in that DT's armpit to stall him just a millisecond so the center can get the reach. So it comes down to scheme too, and also whether you have weak players mixed in with your OL that require assistance in some ways, but OL is that position where the group can quickly disintegrate just due to one guy not handling his shit.

Also and btw they can be better than the sum of their parts when everyone is doing their jobs correctly, even if some of the parts are marginal at best. Look at the Rams GSoT lines for examples there, where we had two top players mixed in among marginal pieces and it worked just fine. So generally continuity is enormous. And generally if you're changing guys out you're going to be prone to the shit that requires coordination, like stunts and zone blitz concepts and the like.

Last but not least LT is a position where you really can't help the tackle. If you keep a TE in to assist on the edge that's one less threat the defense has to deal with. And that extra player can be funneled into an A gap or anywhere else the DC wants on a blitz and overload a line's calls. So this is why OTs tend to make more. And it's why LTs make a ton. Well that and the fact that if you're a QB and don't trust your LT it gets in your head and affects the internal clock and thus timing.

Great post.

All I can add is that it's not a coincidence that for each of the Rams two SB victories they had a Hall of Famer at LT (Pace and Whit.)

 

[PARAM]

So what I'm getting from these great responses is communication and coordination are paramonut. Continuity can help develop that and lack of continuity certainly disrupts it's development. Furthermore the lack of continuity can cloud the picture of who's doing their job and who's not. Also, a lesser talented more cohesive unit can perform as good as a more talented less cohesive unit, if not better.

So, looking forward to 2023, the Rams want the most talented unit they can assemble but even more important, the most cohesive unit possible. But that's out of their control.

It seems simple to see what happened this year. Some (around the net) have called it poor planning. I've heard some accuse the Rams of ignoring the needs of that unit. And still others who've said, they were concerned about this area of the roster and could almost see it coming. I don't believe any of those statements are accurate.

The cohesion and continuity were never given time to develop.

 

[Mackeyser]

Apparently we have a VERY complicated blocking scheme which puts a MASSIVE onus on not just finding the right pieces, but having them be healthy and maintain continuity.

When we had that, we've done well. When we haven’t been healthy on the OL, it’s been bad.

Hopefully, this imparts on McVay to either simplify the OL scheme or put more resources into the OL.

Based on how McSnead operates, the answer seems simple… simplify the scheme. The upside of that is that it’s easier to plug in backups and have less drop off.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

Continuity definitely helps but it's only part of the equation. Talent is always number 1 and is still needed for our Rams. We are sorely lacking it in the IOL. Talented players, such as we had in Big Whit, make it much easier on other lineman to do their job.

 

[PARAM]

Continuity definitely helps but it's only part of the equation. Talent is always number 1 and is still needed for our Rams. We are sorely lacking it in the IOL. Talented players, such as we had in Big Whit, make it much easier on other lineman to do their job.

And yet we did well with Jamon Brown at G in 2017, Austin Blythe there in 2018 and David Edwards/Austin Corbett in 2021. But each one of those seasons there was very little or no time lost to injury. And in 2019, 2020 and 2022, injuries. Twice they were multiple. Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein in 2019. Whitworth in 2020. Everybody but Havenstein this year. It seems even when the talent is there and continuity isn't, it ain't pretty. Continuity with lesser talent can get you by.

 

[El Chapo Jr]

And yet we did well with Jamon Brown at G in 2017, Austin Blythe there in 2018 and David Edwards/Austin Corbett in 2021. But each one of those seasons there was very little or no time lost to injury. And in 2019, 2020 and 2022, injuries. Twice they were multiple. Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein in 2019. Whitworth in 2020. Everybody but Havenstein this year. It seems even when the talent is there and continuity isn't, it ain't pretty.

Yup, it's all part of the equation. Now to blow your mind, would that continuity rule apply if you had 5 Bobby Evans starting all the time though?