A tale of two receivers (and franchises)

[Merlin]

Operator please connect us to 2017 when two NFC West rivals hit the offseason skids with head coaching searches. Rams basically swiped the 9ers heirloom head coaching candidate from under their noses (9ers owner reportedly wanted McVay after their first interview but never got the chance for a second if my memory serves), while the 9ers ended up with Shanahan who had been linked mostly to the Rams. Both division rivals seemed to win the day on their hires, though, ending up with young and top offensive-minded head coaches so all looked well and it appeared would have an added incentive to their long rivalry in the coming seasons.

First up that offseason was the free agency period, where both organizations were looking for help in the passing game. Rams had a young QB who needed weapons he could count on. 9ers needed the QB and WR they could count on.

Enter a 30 old receiver named Pierre Garcon, who was very much coveted by many of the Rams' faithful, and going into the FA period I recall hoping we'd at least get him in the building as he'd played under McVay in Washington. But of course it wasn't to be, as the hated whiners brought him in and threw bags of money at him with a 5 year deal totaling nearly $50M and around $23M up front in the first couple years. His stats in his first two seasons:

2017 8 games, 40 receptions, 500 yards, 0 TD
2018 8 games, 24 receptions, 286 yards, 1 TD

Our Rams, meanwhile, went out and snapped up the unheralded Robert Woods, who in his Buffalo days had lived in the shadow of the heralded Sammy Watkins. At the time there were some in the media who actually bagged on the Rams for this signing, too, that we reached/overpaid to fill a need with $39M over five years with $15M guaranteed. His stats his first two seasons:

2017 12 games, 56 receptions, 781 yards, 5 TD
2018 16 games, 86 receptions, 1219 yards, 6 TD

With the news that the whiners will be parting ways with Garcon this offseason, plus the fact that they are poised to throw more money around on the market, I find it very interesting to look back on how these two regimes started their runs. We all know that McVay has outperformed Shanny Jr. But the Rams as an organization have outperformed the 9ers as well, and that's even with the fact that they haven't exactly hit on all their moves (most have been good of course). Will the whiners learn? Stay tuned looooooool. :rolllaugh:

 

[Merlin]

Whoops...

https://thesportsdaily.com/2017/03/09/signing-woods-was-a-mistake/

Rams Free Agency: 3 Reasons why signing Robert Woods was a mistake

As reported earlier the Rams decided to give former Bills wide receiver 5 years and $39 million dollars. It’s understandable that the Rams would overpay a little for a receiver because they are desperate for one and knew full well that they didn’t have a shot at getting a marquee guy like Alshon Jeffrey or DeSean Jackson.

However, there’s a difference between overpaying for a average to slightly above average receiver and blowing money on a below average receiver. Basically, the Rams paid sticker price for the equivalent of a Ford Pinto. Yes, Robert Woods is young and yes he went to USC so the homecoming aspect will make for a nice LA Times feature but what else are they getting with their money?

In his four seasons in the NFL, Robert Woods has caught a total of 12 touchdown passes 203 catches and 2,451 yards which which puts him at 28th, 31st, and 31st respectively. That doesn’t exactly make him Torry Holt or Az-Hakim now does it? Sure, one could argue that his production was limited because the Buffalo Bills have been in a quarterback wasteland since Jim Kelly retired but its not like Goff is going to turn him into a pro bowl player.

What’s worse is the Rams didn’t have to overpay for Woods because its not like they were in a bidding war with anybody. The Bills wouldn’t have paid him that and they are desperate for someone to play opposite Sammy Watkins or fill in during his inevitable injury. Furthermore, there was better, cheaper value elsewhere.

The Eagles signed Torrey Smith for three years at $15 million which is a heck of a lot more value than Woods because at least Smith is a proven deep threat that has a ring. Smith is still young and he’s only tainted by the fact he was chained in a 49ers offense that couldn’t succeed if they had a DeLorean to go get 1987 Jerry Rice.

It’s possible the Rams floated a similar offer to Smith and he said no but even if that were the case just because the person you wanted to leave the bar with rejected you it doesn’t mean you go home with the person at the end of the bar who peed themselves and can barely stand. Desperation causes people to do stupid things but Les Snead really dropped the ball on this one which is exactly what Woods will do every Sunday.

The Whitmore signing earlier was risky because the guy is at the end of the line but at least the deal wasn’t bad financially and he at least provides veteran leadership as long as he’s there. Robert Woods’ best asset is that he’s a pretty good blocker but not 5 years and $39 million good.

The only hope to salvage this off-season for the Rams is if someone offers a nice package for Trumaine Johnson but that might not even come until the summer time if no one bites during this year’s draft. Snead’s goal might have been to reboot the offense but it shouldn’t have to come at this steep a price.

They’d have been better off sticking with Kenny Britt because at least Britt managed to get 1,000 yards, Woods never has. So far, Les Snead is asking Sean McVay to make chicken salad out of chicken s–t and that’s not fair. They’re already paying Tavon Austin 4 years $42 million ($28.5 mil guaranteed) to catch passes out of the backfield and not score touchdowns.

Hopefully, this whole piece is proven wrong and Woods goes out there and shows all he needed was to be back home at the Coliseum but until that day comes, this deal was just plain dumb.

 

[Merlin]

More ironclad logic by this genius too looool...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2698881-nfl1000s-all-overpaid-free-agency-team#slide3

1. 
   Two things are true: The Los Angeles Rams know they have to get more playmakers around quarterback Jared Goff, and because they had the worst offense anyone's seen in a decade in 2016, they're most likely going to have to pay players more than they're worth to get said players to align themselves with what looked like a disaster last season.
   
   The hiring of head coach Sean McVay, formerly the Washington Redskins' ace offensive designer, should mitigate that to a degree, but the NFL is a "prove it" league, and all the Rams have proved recently is that they have a stunted offense with a quarterback who's in need of plenty of development.
   
   In that capacity, the move to sign Robert Woods to a five-year, $34 million deal with $10 million guaranteed isn't too outrageous. But Woods has never put up even a 700-yard season in any of his four NFL years, and while he's a decent possession receiver with some deep route-running ability, he's not been transcendent in a system with a better quarterback in Tyrod Taylor.
   
   Given Goff's tendency to balk under pressure and his failure to be consistently accurate to any level of the field, it'd be wise to expect regression by any new receiver. With that in mind, Woods' statistical output won't be anywhere near spectacular, and his new contract is the 25th heftiest among 268 receivers.
   

 

[Memento]

I'm pretty sure that WalterFootball gave the Woods signing a grade that's below an "F." Shows how much that stupid motherfucker knows.

 

[Merlin]

Another good one....

https://www.downtownrams.com/single-post/2017/03/16/Robert-Woods-First-Failure-of-McVay-Era

Robert Woods First Failure of McVay Era

March 16, 2017
Blaine Grisak

Last week, the Los Angeles Rams signed wide receiver Robert Woods. While not the flashiest of signings, in the end it was an improvement over what the Rams had. After losing Kenny Britt, the team desperately needed a wide receiver.


Woods has upside with a small drop percentage rate, he's just 24 years old, and against NFC West opponents last season, the former Bills receiver had 27 receptions for 257 yards and a touchdown.


With that said, while impressive thus far for a young head coach, the Robert Woods signing is the first failure of the Sean McVay era. For the first time since coming to L.A., McVay wasn't able to get his guys to follow him and in the end, he and Snead panicked by overpaying an average number two receiver at best.


All offseason prior to free agency, it was thought of as almost a given that Pierre Garcon or Desean Jackson would follow their former offensive coordinator to the Rams. After losing Britt, the Rams would need a veteran presence and a number one receiver to replace him and Garcon or Jackson would fit the bill.


Neither came to LA and at the end of the day the Rams were left with Bradley Marquez, Nelson Spruce, Tavon Austin, Pharoh Cooper, Paul McRoberts, and Mike Thomas as their wide receivers. Of which, they had combined 695 yards last season. Woods may be an improvement, but that's really not saying much considering what the Rams have on the roster.


Garcon on the other hand received a five year contract from the 49ers worth up to $47-million. While he will get up to $16-million in the first year, it is essentially a deal worth $9-million per year with room to release him after the first two years.


Jackson also signed a three year deal worth up to $35-million. The former Washington deep threat was more expensive, but once again, would have been a veteran presence that the Rams desperately need in their receiver group.


When he first came to LA, Jeff Fisher brought in guys like Cortland Finnegan, William Hayes, Kenny Britt, and Jared Cook. These are guys that knew Fisher and knew what he wanted to do.


Did it work out? No. However, several new head coaches do this. Kyle Shanahan brought in Brian Hoyer because he knows the system from their time in Cleveland.


It's important to have veteran players that know the head coach's system and the culture that they want to build. Right now, McVay doesn't have that. Having someone like Garcon to help guys like Jared Goff with the offense and help the young receivers would have been greatly beneficial.


McVay was able to bring coaches like Joe Barry and Shane Waldron from Washington to help on the offensive and defensive side of the ball. Not to mention get coaches like Matt LeFleur and Wade Phillips to head the offense and defense.


However, having that veteran presence in the locker room and someone who knows the system from a players perspective is just as important as getting the right coaches.


Garcon's contract isn't crazy for a 30-year old wide receiver. The first year makes it look worse than it is. Essentially it's a 3-year deal with a big first year.


Instead the Rams gave Woods, a 24-year old average number two receiver in Buffalo. The former USC receiver signed a five year deal worth $39-million which averages out to around $8-million per year.


This is a receiver that has never accumulated 700 receiving yards or more than five touchdowns in a season. Woods had just 10 more receptions and 49 more yards than Brian Quick with the Rams yet is getting just $1-million less than Garcon who amassed 1,000 yards last year and $2-million more than Terrell Pryor who also eclipsed 1,000 yards.


You can look at the quarterbacks that Woods has played with and blame his low receiving yards on that and that he was overshadowed by Sammy Watkins.


EJ Manuel and Tyrod Taylor are either about the same, if not better than Goff. The number one overall pick had the worst QBR in the NFL by far last season. That's not going to help Woods by any means.


In the seven games that Watkins was hurt last year, Woods averaged just 66 yards per game and taking away his 162 yard performance against the Seahawks, he averaged just 50.


This wreaks of a panic move as they clearly overpaid for a receiver who, while young, hasn't proved he can be anything more than a number two.


Yet, many fans are overjoyed and are expecting Woods to jump in to the number one role when he simply isn't that. Had it been Brian Quick who got this deal, fans would have been furious.


The Rams have $18-million invested in their top two receivers and neither have ever eclipsed the 700 yard mark let alone 1,000 yards in their career.


Austin and Woods found the end zone a combined five times last season, one by Woods. For an offense that ranked dead last in scoring, paying $18-million for receivers who don't score and can't create separation, seems like a poor investment.


Only time will tell what type of receiver Woods will become. However, being unable to bring in a veteran receiver like Garcon and then panicking for Woods, looks like it could be the first failure of the McVay era.

 

[OldSchool]

We could give a similar story with letting Watkins go and trading for Cooks. Many people including some here were upset with the Rams for letting Watkins go and wasting draft capital on Coojs. I think it was another one of those upsetting fans causing Snead and McVay to lose sleep scenarios One of these days fans will enjoy the decisions and let the process work out instead of what currently happens.

 

[Ram65]

I really liked the signing. (One thing I got right). Looking back many thought the money was high but, I thought for his age ( 24 or 25) and the length of the deal it was good for the Rams. The fact that he was considered a great blocker was as important as his catch making ability. He really has shined as a blocker and almost never misses a catch. He can run with the ball too.

Rams are putting most of their money in younger players which is great. Taking a chance on Whitworth was smart as he stays healthy. Making smart free agent decisions changes the entire landscape of the team. Hope the Rams keep it up.

 

[Merlin]

We could give a similar story with letting Watkins go and trading for Cooks. Many people including some here were upset with the Rams for letting Watkins go and wasting draft capital on Coojs. I think it was another one of those upsetting fans causing Snead and McVay to lose sleep scenarios One of these days fans will enjoy the decisions and let the process work out instead of what currently happens.

Well nobody bats a thousand. Watkins was a move I consider to be a mistake but the lion's share of moves have been hits and that is what is important.

As to agreeing with every move the team makes that works for you but we're all wired differently my man Cheers.

 

[Merlin]

I really liked the signing. (One thing I got right). Looking back many thought the money was high but, I thought for his age ( 24 or 25) and the length of the deal it was good for the Rams. The fact that he was considered a great blocker was as important as his catch making ability. He really has shined as a blocker and almost never misses a catch. He can run with the ball too.

Rams are putting most of their money in younger players which is great. Taking a chance on Whitworth was smart as he stays healthy. Making smart free agent decisions changes the entire landscape of the team. Hope the Rams keep it up.

Yeah his age and the way he fits the scheme make it one of the best signings that year. What I love about him is his selfless approach.

Think I was cautiously optimistic at the time but he has exceeded my expectations.

 

[OldSchool]

Well nobody bats a thousand. Watkins was a move I consider to be a mistake but the lion's share of moves have been hits and that is what is important.

As to agreeing with every move the team makes that works for you but we're all wired differently my man Cheers.

I never said anything about agreeing with everything not sure where you got that. My comment was letting things happen and work out before getting panties bunched up. It's funny we usually all agree that you can't grade a draft until 3 years after. But I've read around here, maybe by you maybe it was others, that obviously Kiser wasn't good because he didn't start his rookie year. So another perfect example of what I'm saying, let things happen! Les, Sean and Wade do kind of know what they're doing and I'll go out on a limb and say they know better than anybody on this forum. But that won't change a thing. We'll let somebody walk in free agency which will be followed by 10 threads about how the sky is falling because of this one move. And chances are pretty good it'll work out in the end. How many thought we screwed up because we got rid of Quinn? Yeah he's on the trade block again or threatened to be cut. Jets are not happy with their signing of TruJo and Watkins is rumored to be traded or released after 2019 when the majority of his guaranteed money is gone. Won't change the doom and gloom when the front office makes another decision. We'll still get a bunch of threads where one of us is telling everybody how stupid the Rams are for that choice. And I'm definitely not implying that every choice they make is perfect. But it's comical the drama that goes on here and on other sites over moves the day they happen, a month or a year after they happened.

 

[Merlin]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying above @OldSchool. We all have that line where conversations that exceed it range into that territory where we think it's overreacting or craziness. The difference is where we perceive it to be.

That said, at some point if we just clap along with everything there's nothing really to discuss. I come here not only to throw out thoughts but to also get good feedback and maybe learn a thing or two, which requires said discourse.

But anyway. Just trying to throw out a quick diversion from the same old thing while we wait for FA. Cheers.

 

[Farr Be It]

I never said anything about agreeing with everything not sure where you got that. My comment was letting things happen and work out before getting panties bunched up. It's funny we usually all agree that you can't grade a draft until 3 years after. But I've read around here, maybe by you maybe it was others, that obviously Kiser wasn't good because he didn't start his rookie year. So another perfect example of what I'm saying, let things happen! Les, Sean and Wade do kind of know what they're doing and I'll go out on a limb and say they know better than anybody on this forum. But that won't change a thing. We'll let somebody walk in free agency which will be followed by 10 threads about how the sky is falling because of this one move. And chances are pretty good it'll work out in the end. How many thought we screwed up because we got rid of Quinn? Yeah he's on the trade block again or threatened to be cut. Jets are not happy with their signing of TruJo and Watkins is rumored to be traded or released after 2019 when the majority of his guaranteed money is gone. Won't change the doom and gloom when the front office makes another decision. We'll still get a bunch of threads where one of us is telling everybody how stupid the Rams are for that choice. And I'm definitely not implying that every choice they make is perfect. But it's comical the drama that goes on here and on other sites over moves the day they happen, a month or a year after they happened.

Well said, @OldSchool These b-list writers want to make a name for themselves by knee-jerk declarations after a trade, or draft pick. In fact, their track record, whether they are writing from their mothers basement, or from under a bouffant haircut on ESPN, is 50/50 at best.

Let’s give these hard-working guys a shot before we declare their fate, huh?

However, there’s a difference between overpaying for a average to slightly above average receiver and blowing money on a below average receiver. Basically, the Rams paid sticker price for the equivalent of a Ford Pinto

Wow. Nobody tell our Guy he’s a Pinto. Poor delusional Woods thinks and plays like a ‘65 Mustang.

So far, your editor is asking You to make chicken salad out of chicken s–t writing skills and that’s not fair.

fixed it slick.

Hopefully, this whole piece is proven wrong and Woods goes out there and shows all he needed was to be back home at the Coliseum but until that day comes, this deal was just plain dumb.

yes. Crossing our fingers.

 

[Akrasian]

But I've read around here, maybe by you maybe it was others, that obviously Kiser wasn't good because he didn't start his rookie year.

This is a misreading of things I've said. I've said that the Rams (and many posters on this board) should not count on Kiser to be the starter and the solution for the Rams' running defense not because he didn't start - but because he did not even get significant playing time except on special teams. People point to first time starters like Littleton and Ebu - both of whom got a lot of playing time in 2017. Some of us here would rather that the Rams had more of a plan than to make somebody who could not even be a key backup for a weak linebacking group plan A in the middle of the defense. Maybe he would work out - but I'd rather the Rams not need to make a panic trade in the middle of the season for a failed vet like Fowler (who did work pretty well in the Rams' system, but everybody knew that they were weak there before the season. The Rams put a lot into the 2018 season and the defense - trading for a pair of CBs, franchising the FS, signing Suh, giving Donald a (briefly) record contract even though he was under contract already - but did exceptionally little for the middle of the defense. It's time they do more for the linebacking group than rely on late draft picks who got little playing time last season.

 

[Akrasian]

That said, at some point if we just clap along with everything there's nothing really to discuss. I come here not only to throw out thoughts but to also get good feedback and maybe learn a thing or two, which requires said discourse.

Exactly. Fact is the Rams are doing fantastic right now - but that's not the same as saying no less than optimal moves have been made. And the point of boards like these are to - politely - discuss both the good and the bad of our favorite NFL team.

 

[OldSchool]

This is a misreading of things I've said. I've said that the Rams (and many posters on this board) should not count on Kiser to be the starter and the solution for the Rams' running defense not because he didn't start - but because he did not even get significant playing time except on special teams. People point to first time starters like Littleton and Ebu - both of whom got a lot of playing time in 2017. Some of us here would rather that the Rams had more of a plan than to make somebody who could not even be a key backup for a weak linebacking group plan A in the middle of the defense. Maybe he would work out - but I'd rather the Rams not need to make a panic trade in the middle of the season for a failed vet like Fowler (who did work pretty well in the Rams' system, but everybody knew that they were weak there before the season. The Rams put a lot into the 2018 season and the defense - trading for a pair of CBs, franchising the FS, signing Suh, giving Donald a (briefly) record contract even though he was under contract already - but did exceptionally little for the middle of the defense. It's time they do more for the linebacking group than rely on late draft picks who got little playing time last season.

Which circles back to what many have said. Wade Phillips kind of sort of knows what he’s doing. He has a plan. Reading into what happened this year without knowing what he has planned and what he’s sees then writing off a player because of your perceptions is a special kindnof arrogance.

And @Merlin I'm not saying there isn’t anything to discuss or we shouldn’t talk about moves or picks. Im saying the drama reactions and dozen threads that pop up abou the same topic are comical overreactions. Before people get upset maybe see how things work out or even better wait for the coaches to tell us what they think. Wade actually talked about Micah Kiser during the preseason and season. But most don’t watch his pressers somwouldnt know that.

 

[bubbaramfan]

Woods was, is, and will be and integral piece to the Rams offense. A very good signing of a football smart team player who gives 110%. Wood's best years are yet to come.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

the woods signing showed how little nfl writers and fans actually know about the league in general. all it showed is their knowledge of the league is confined to the redzone channel and box scores. they looked at the numbers and concluded the rams overpaid for woods.

.

 

[I like Rams]

Whoops...

https://thesportsdaily.com/2017/03/09/signing-woods-was-a-mistake/

Rams Free Agency: 3 Reasons why signing Robert Woods was a mistake

As reported earlier the Rams decided to give former Bills wide receiver 5 years and $39 million dollars. It’s understandable that the Rams would overpay a little for a receiver because they are desperate for one and knew full well that they didn’t have a shot at getting a marquee guy like Alshon Jeffrey or DeSean Jackson.

However, there’s a difference between overpaying for a average to slightly above average receiver and blowing money on a below average receiver. Basically, the Rams paid sticker price for the equivalent of a Ford Pinto. Yes, Robert Woods is young and yes he went to USC so the homecoming aspect will make for a nice LA Times feature but what else are they getting with their money?

In his four seasons in the NFL, Robert Woods has caught a total of 12 touchdown passes 203 catches and 2,451 yards which which puts him at 28th, 31st, and 31st respectively. That doesn’t exactly make him Torry Holt or Az-Hakim now does it? Sure, one could argue that his production was limited because the Buffalo Bills have been in a quarterback wasteland since Jim Kelly retired but its not like Goff is going to turn him into a pro bowl player.

What’s worse is the Rams didn’t have to overpay for Woods because its not like they were in a bidding war with anybody. The Bills wouldn’t have paid him that and they are desperate for someone to play opposite Sammy Watkins or fill in during his inevitable injury. Furthermore, there was better, cheaper value elsewhere.

The Eagles signed Torrey Smith for three years at $15 million which is a heck of a lot more value than Woods because at least Smith is a proven deep threat that has a ring. Smith is still young and he’s only tainted by the fact he was chained in a 49ers offense that couldn’t succeed if they had a DeLorean to go get 1987 Jerry Rice.

It’s possible the Rams floated a similar offer to Smith and he said no but even if that were the case just because the person you wanted to leave the bar with rejected you it doesn’t mean you go home with the person at the end of the bar who peed themselves and can barely stand. Desperation causes people to do stupid things but Les Snead really dropped the ball on this one which is exactly what Woods will do every Sunday.

The Whitmore signing earlier was risky because the guy is at the end of the line but at least the deal wasn’t bad financially and he at least provides veteran leadership as long as he’s there. Robert Woods’ best asset is that he’s a pretty good blocker but not 5 years and $39 million good.

The only hope to salvage this off-season for the Rams is if someone offers a nice package for Trumaine Johnson but that might not even come until the summer time if no one bites during this year’s draft. Snead’s goal might have been to reboot the offense but it shouldn’t have to come at this steep a price.

They’d have been better off sticking with Kenny Britt because at least Britt managed to get 1,000 yards, Woods never has. So far, Les Snead is asking Sean McVay to make chicken salad out of chicken s–t and that’s not fair. They’re already paying Tavon Austin 4 years $42 million ($28.5 mil guaranteed) to catch passes out of the backfield and not score touchdowns.

Hopefully, this whole piece is proven wrong and Woods goes out there and shows all he needed was to be back home at the Coliseum but until that day comes, this deal was just plain dumb.

"The Whitmore signing earlier was risky because the guy is at the end of the line but at least the deal wasn’t bad financially and he at least provides veteran leadership as long as he’s there. Robert Woods’ best asset is that he’s a pretty good blocker but not 5years and $39 million good."

Who the phuck is Whitmore???

 

[Mojo Ram]

Exactly. Fact is the Rams are doing fantastic right now - but that's not the same as saying no less than optimal moves have been made.

Not picking on you at all, just using your words as a launching point here.

A team can't field 22 all pro's or even 22 REALLY good players.
I mean, what i see as a damn good roster...the other guy may see as a roster with some good players and a ton of "holes."
Usually when it comes to members banging heads or getting irritated with one another it simply comes down to a glass half full "realist" vs a glass half empty "realist."

I could say to someone that there are probably 28 other teams in the league that would kill to have the Rams' starting 22 right now...and i do believe that....but the other guy might say "Yeah but Whitworth is old, the LB core is weak, Goff has to get paid, the TE's are average etc. For me personally i don't even want to talk football with that guy(so i don't). That guy is bringing the same conversation to the table now that he did when the team was the worst organization in the NFL.

There's a middle ground and a respect for the culture of the board. Without disagreement there is no discussion. Having said that, THIS is not a board that tolerates a constant barrage from doom and gloomer "realists" like all of the other boards. I think the vast majority of ya'll get that...and if the culture here bothered anyone i would hope that they'd just leave, rather than bang heads and whine about free speech on a message board.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Who the phuck is Whitmore???

James Whitmore, a legend. Come on man....
Gunsmoke, Tora Tora Tora...

Shawshank Redemption